Discussion in 'Colorado Basketball Message Board' started by cubuffs85, Jun 3, 2014.
It fell 9 percent over 22 years and there were far less programs 22 years ago so It's hard to even compare. I'm not even convinced that's a general trend. It may just be typical fluctuation.
I don't really see why it's an issue (and 9 percent in a quarter century doesn't convince me there even is). Surely more infrastructure is in place for women interested in pursuing coaching as a career than there was in 1980. It isn't men chasing money. It's women's college basketball growing and developing from complete irrelevance 30 years ago. Surely having a field of both men and women coaching is more competitive and good for the game than hindering that via quotas or similar methods.
Hire a former player from the broadcast table who didn't have coaching experience of their own? Well, the U of Arkansas is no Golden State Warriors, and they did it back to back.
Not a single woman from among all the basketball players from these past generations of players had landed a D1 Men's job. I definitely appreciate why the women coaches are frustrated by what they are seeing in the women's game. Not too many women getting AD jobs, either.
I do question what is going on and worry about unfairness on this.
Hell, I've been around enough men in the workplace who were uncomfortable with strong women (especially lesbians, as a good number of women athletes are) that I can easily see a male-dominated AD universe favoring hiring a guy for WBB on grounds other than qualifications. We're also talking about a jock culture here, too. Not always the most progressive attitudes toward women.
9 percent change in 22 years makes me wonder if this is overblown. However, I'm curious about women's high school basketball. Admittedly I don't follow it closely overall outside of 1 program. My high school has had men coaching lately (and been among the best programs in the state churning out talent to ACC schools and all over D1). Are enough women coaching high schools? Because that's a natural progression point. Meanwhile, UVA has only had women as coaches. If the numbers of women coaching needs to be improved, do it by continuing to develop programs to assist women, not by creating artificial barriers to block men.
In terms of women in AD's, I have a very close family member who is now currently working in an Ivy League athletic department (has been in BCS conference AD's in the past). She's never sensed any barriers of jock culture in terms of hindering her career advancement, at least not to this point. However, just one experience of a woman in the field. As a former D1 athlete, maybe she's part of that culture.
Sure that happened, Mark Jackson last three seasons and was shown the door. Jason Kidd was also promoted without any head coaching experience -- it does seem OJT for him (I heard Mark Jackson also lost a lot when Michael Malone left for the Kings). However, most programs -- pros or college aren't just going to hire someone without any coaching experience. I think it's a bit harder in college, since the job is less X's and O's compared to the pros (recruting, fundraising, academics, etc). Can you recall any BCS school making that type of hire?
Let's use the women's basketball Jimmy Dykes as an example. Someone who who had been an assistant at some good wbb programs, became a scout for the WNBA for a few years, then wbb broadcast games for 20 years. If a men's program the equivalent of Arkansas hired him or her wouldn't they be laughed out of the room? That's what I think Tara is getting at.
That is certainly fair. I think alumni who show interest will always get more consideration than they deserve for any college gig because of bias and there's no way around it. It's the nepotism of the coaching world and we have seen it work and also seen it fail horribly. If Jimmy Dykes fails to connect with his players on any level and the season suffers for it then hopefully it will serve as a cautionary tale to schools to look deeper into the relevant qualifications of a candidate. But I wish him the very best.
And you're absolutely right that alumni will have a leg up. Jimmy Dykes was likely hired despite his lack of women's basketball ties because he's a familiar name to Arkansas fans which should help (initially) with interest and thus attendance and donations to the program.
I don't think Tara is so much upset about the fact, they are hiring a man for this job (although she would obviously like to see more women head coaches). It's the fact they are hiring someone who has never coached women's basketball and hasn't coached at any level in 20 years. Know who else she should be upset with? (and maybe she is); LTech's decision to hire Tyler Summitt. Here's someone who has two years of head coaching experience and his boss just got fired. Can you imagine a men's program of that caliber making that type of a move? (Yes, we all know why LT hired Tyler Summitt)
Ultimately in almost all cases, they are judged on W's/L's. If Dykes wins, no one will care how he was hired or even if he was qualified. The other side of the coin is true as well.
I'm only going to comment on this part of your statement nik, but c'mon - unfair in the workplace? As an employer, you hire the best candidate for the job, period. That may be a guy, that may be a black guy, that may be an asian woman. As a business owner you need to find the person that is the best fit for your organization and that's the bottom line.
I wont be convinced that these teams (enterprises) are not seeking profit. I'm not stupid. Give it to the best person, no matter what.
What if there was a better coach available when we hired tad (ceal?) and she thought it was "unfair"?
fify People need to win, so they hire coaches they think will accomplish that.
I know! Let's stop keeping score in women's games and start giving "participation" medals to all. Then they can hire a bunch of barely competent women coaches and people will care less than they do today!
While we're at it, the NBA needs more balance, white players are subject to discrimination; it's time for quotas to be put in place in order for more diversity on the team rosters. Diversity is good!
When high profile women speak out publicly like this and say there's a problem, I would suggest to listen.
Just by virtue of the fact they're upset says that there is a problem here.
They may not be 100% right. That's rarely the case.
But don't be so dismissive. Especially when I suspect that some of you who are being dismissive don't know a damn thing about women's basketball and this may be the first time you've ever posted in a WBB thread. (I said "some". There are some people in this thread disagreeing with me whose opinions I respect in this area. Others are giving off the, "Rush Limbaugh has decided to join the discussion" vibe.)
And yet research shows that when hiring committees are presented with two nearly identical resumes--only the name/gender is changed--they routinely downgrade the female's application and upgrade the male's.
Additionally, businesses are notoriously bad about identifying the specific skillsets they seek in a candidate, and instead default to the interview that "feels right", convincing themselves they've hired the best candidate for the job. There is plenty room for unintentional gender bias in that system which puportedly selects "the best person, no matter what."
My job requires that I build/train/lead and/or manage teams. I need to force myself to keep gender bias on the forefront of my mind (for instance, if I have a negative reaction to an agressive woman, I always ask myself if I'd have the same reaction to a male--sometimes the honest answer is "no"). It's my opinion that most of us need to be very deliberate in our examination of personal gender bias. Almost nobody intends to do it, yet I suspect nearly all of us do (regardless of our gender).
Honestly, I'll admit I'm a hypocrite. I hate that Arkansas went with a man who has zero coaching experience with the women's game, but I love the fact that he's no longer on my TV so I don't have to listen to him (similar to the Ernie Kent hire). So I'm torn.
Yep, she's not the first person to mention this being a "problem" but she is the most high profile to my knowledge. I don't recall Pat Summit saying anything about it and I doubt she would now even if she was in good health because of her son (would look really hypocritical). Pat Summit after all was allegedly offered the Tennessee men's job multiple times and turned it down. I have no doubt that she could've done that job and done it successfully.
I follow MD women's basketball. They've had all female head coaches aside from when Frese went on maternity leave. But there is(was) a rift in the program regarding the role Jeff Walz played in the championship season, specifically if he drew up a key play. Since he left, Frese promoted Tina Langley to be the lead assistant but the two other assistants are men (including Vasquez high school coach), plus a lot of the support staff.
What bothers Tara as mentioned in the article is before the money was good in women's athletics for college coaches, you didn't see men trying to do those jobs. And that if it was it still the case, you wouldn't see men seeking these jobs. And the Jimmy Dykes situation stands out above them all because of his lack of involvement in women's basketball and how he was able to get the job over more women who had been in the industry much longer. If women could coach the men, this wouldn't be an issue. When men are taking 30-40% of the jobs in women's athletics, it looks bad, even if the intentions are good (best person for the job).
I was watching this thing during the Women's Final Four on how Geno got hired at UConn. The AD at the time specifically said that he wanted a man; basically why don't we just run this operation like we would for the men's program. And when UConn is now the gold standard of women's basketball by far, you obviously want to replicate success. And Geno can get away with saying a lot of things that a woman couldn't in his position. However, what he's done a good job with as mentioned in the article is he almost always employs an all-female staff. Chris Dailey never gets enough credit IMO for her role in UConn's success over the years.
I think this is a legitimate issue and one that needs to be looked into.
We have seen enough hires made for mens programs in BB and FB to know that for a lot of athletic directors it is all about the good ol boys network. Who you know and how interested they are in playing a round of golf with you matters as much or more than your qualifications.
I'm not in any way saying that the men are being hired are universally not qualified. Look at the number of male coaches who have won NCs.
At the same time we are now 25 years into title IX. You can't tell me that there aren't significant numbers of women out there who came up through the game, know and love the game, and have the passion and intelligence to be successful head coaches, I just don't buy it.
As father of two girls I am also concerned about the message sent saying you can play the game, you can represent us in uniform, but when it comes down to it as hard as you may work we would rather hire a man to be our HC.
You see this (not so much anymore) with the pressure of hiring a minority coaching candidate as well. Ultimately, these ADs (and GMs) need to do what is best for their program. No one is going to care why you hired them in 5 years, they just care that they are getting the job done. If Dykes doesn't work out, he'll be shown the door like any other coach.
Personally, I'd like to see more women being given opportunities to coach the women's game until they are allowed to coach the men's game. For someone like Dykes to be able to be hired to this position without any sort of apprenticeship, I sure hope that he blew away the search committee.
Ironically the first time I saw this "problem" being mentioned was in an article about the decline of black caddies as the money got better for that vocation.
The point being that Title IX was supposed to help women and it has in terms of playing. Administrators OTOH have used this as an opportunity to "upgrade" their women's programs which includes hiring men as coaches as a disproportionate rate than before.
Agreed. We really dont know how biased we are, and in what ways.
That was easy!
Wyo doesn't count, he's easy.
Tyler Summitt had 1 year's experience as an assistant coach and is now the head coach at La Tech. His last name and mother's reputation got him that job. In the world of women's coaching today, coaches do not move up to head coach that fast. Yes, Ceal moved up fast, but that was many, many years ago and she did not make big bucks. Tyler Summitt has been smart enough to surround himself with excellent assistant coaches.
Actually he had two years, but point taken. Pat got the HC job because the person who had it went on sabbatical or something, Ceal was able to because it was a different time.
While his last name helps, no one is going to care if he can't win. It's not like Marquette was too successful while he was there and that's the only thing on his resume.
Both Pat and Ceal got their first head coaching positions in a totally different time. It just doesn't happen now unless your mother is Pat Summitt.
La Tech has had problems winning with their past few coaches. Tyler was smart in who he has on his staff. They will help him immensely. I don't know how much advice Pat is still able to give. However, Pat can't be on the sideline with him like the assistant coaches.
I'm guessing if it wasn't for her health decline, he would've been serving as an assistant coach under her before starting his own program. Obviously having the Summitt name is going to help in terms of recruits and getting quality assistant coaches.
Agree. I was actually a bit surprised Holly Warlock didn't hire him. Maybe Tyler wanted away from Tennessee since mom had been the previous coach and to let Holly make her own way.
Tyler named Mickie De Moss Associate Head Coach. She is a former Lady Techster and a former Associate Head Coach at Tennessee. Assistant coach Bernitha Johnson spent 3 years as a team manager for Pat and one year as a grad assistant coach. Amber Smith spent one year as grad assistant at Tennessee and played for Kentucky. Definitely reached to his Tennessee connections for coaches.
I think Tyler was trying to get away from his mom's shadow. He could've likely gone to one of his mother's former players programs instead he went to one with virtually no connection to his mother, which he got by coldcalling Terri Mitchell. Credit where it's due with Tyler Summitt here IMO.
Separate names with a comma.