Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by Jens1893, Nov 27, 2012.
I clicked on the link because I was in the process of making a post on the subject of mudslinging...so I will just do it here.
Okay, so basically what I have gathered over the last few weeks, and especially few days, is that anyone that is a former Buff, and ACTUALLY personally know Embree, Barnett, Mac AND Bohn (their personalities, their character, their beliefs, etc...), yet have decided to publicly question Bohn for his history at the University and his capability to turn this program around, all of these people are now ****ing idiots, and the scum of the earth for caring enough to take a position based upon what they know.
I happen to agree that Embree didn't a good enough job last year
I happen agree that Bohn is a problem (along with his bosses), and have serious questions as to his aptitude to hire a successful FB coach.
A few tidbits as I leave....and I'll try hard not to intentionally air some dirty laundry
Related to some consistent comments here, McChesney was WELL on his way to being a black sheep among many people that he once considered friends...this is before he made his public outcry against this staff, and NOT because he didn't support them. That event only brought some peoples view of him to the public for front. The fact that he is viewed as a ray of light on this board is quite funny to me, honestly.
The consistent blaming of B4L is misinformed at best. EVERYONE wanted a coach that would bring stability, and many wanted a coach that would bring back tradition last time around...the people that blame B4L for this move, must view that organization as CU's version of stone masons as best I can tell. All I can say is that is wrong. Revisionist history is a funny thing, but in speaking directly to coach McCartney at the time the Embree hire was made, he personally told me that he only hoped to get the job because he saw how bad it was going to be for the first few years, and he was willing to fall on his sword so that the right coach could learn under him while he took all the criticisms. But rather, CU decided to jump that step and hire the coach that Mac suggested as a possible coach in waiting, and then fired him when pretty much exactly what Mac predicted, happened....only worse, because as everyone knew, Embree was a coach learning on the job. Mac's consistent support for Embree was not out of blind, and senile support, but rather molded out of his view of what it would take. I believe Mac pretty much predicted the course of the last few years to a tee.
I personally know that the former players and AD alumni that have cared enough to stay close to the program in recent years see the real issues much as I, and many others that are being blasted on here do. The excessive vitriol directed at the public figures for voicing their opinion (one that I share), because they care VERY much for this University has just become too much for me. I post here rarely, but I will no longer even look at this site. I really do hope that Bohn gets this right, but I have tangible experiences and reasons to believe that he likely won't. I hope that I am wrong.
How the **** can you defend a coach when his team actually performs worse over time? If I actually saw any improvement on the field, ANY, a single glimmer of hope for the future, I would not have been in favor of firing Embree. Yes, Bohn has made mistakes. Using this event to decry those mistakes is opportunistic at best and underhanded at face value. The firing was justified.
So, you stand behind one side for voicing their opinions but condemn others for voicing theirs if it's contradictory? Fair enough... :rolling_eyes:
BTW: Any credibility is lost once you throw the "I will no longer even look at this site" tantrum...
Thanks for dumping your thoughts, which have nothing to do with the article I posted whatsoever, in this thread where I was hoping to get some discussion about the article I posted.
And nothing of value was lost.
Do not, I repeat DO NOT let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!
(Dollars to donuts says you lauded the choice of DH, as a homerun and you missed watching all the games this year!) While the scoreboard types don't award "style points", paying fans and alum donors do! This team was a CFOAMF in every conceivable way, yet Embree was only willing to heave Cabral and Brown under the bus? What does that say about his character?)
Allbuff - I want to clarify 2 points.
1. McChesney was not seen as a "guiding light". Lots of argument on this board. I think the consensus was that it was good to see someone speak out when no one was, but the way he did it wasn't supported. Views ran the gamut, but that's probably the average view on here.
2. Regarding McCartney, please check out this thread: http://www.allbuffs.com/showthread.php/82695-Mac-was-100-correct . Also, please note that I posted it on Friday 11/23 in the midst of this. Maybe you want to bump that thread and add to that discussion. It didn't get much traction. Probably because it's water under the bridge and Embree is not Mac.
Am I the only one that thought this was a pretty good post, and inline with a lot of speculation that took place on Allbuffs over the last 23 months?
I wonder if his I will no longer look at this site claim will last longer than BB2's.
I don't have a problem with the post, but I think that a good reply was posted elsewhere. These public supporters who care VERY much for the program ignored the football team the entire season, and then was outraged when action was taken? Where was the discussion during the season? From us "outsiders", it looks a lot like protecting one of their own and deflecting very legitimate criticism during the WORST football season in history.
So since the public figures who care VERY much for the program wouldn't discuss the issue and discuss possible courses of action, many of us "outsiders" did everything in our power to make sure our voices were heard.
I wonder what the entire AD would look like if the "outsiders" pulled all of their financial support. They want the money but not opinions.
Did coach Mac predict calling a QB sneak on 1st and 10?
There is losing (which most people on this board predicted last year and this year) and then there is being an embarrassment. I simply don't believe that Mac saw the depths to which the program would fall. Nobody could have or if they did see them, they certainly would have suggested a different direction.
He must have been responding to a couple of references I made to McChesney's radio show this morning. Today was, maybe, the second or third time I'd ever heard him. I liked what he said this morning. I didn't like how he came across at the end of the Hawkins deal. I care deeply for Mac, but I believe he is taking the wrong stance on the Embree firing.
This idea was stupid then, and it's even dumber in hindsight. We were going to sh*t the bed for 3 years under Mac, and then be okay with handing over the reigns to his second in command? What reality would that work in? If Mac was such a clairvoyent, he should've avoided the job altogether and told his guys to stay away.
I wish they knew how to quit us....
11 posts. Dude didn't even give us a chance to grow on him! :lol:
its all fun and games until someone takes this sh*t seriously.
Its a sports internet bulletin board. Thats it. The difference between this and your crazy fat uncle that arm chairs Manning or whoever is that you can log in and read it. Were here for the fun of it. Were here because we love CU and this where we talk about it (along with a lot of other things besides sports) than oh well. If I am internet scum than tatoo that on my ass.
You make some good points. In fact you validated something I had already deduced; Embree was set up to fail mostly due to his inexperience. Without Mac to groom him he and EB were left to their own devices feeling their way through the dark. Im sure the bastardization of the hire process contributed to this. Its been a sad chapter for us and Im thankful that we can all move on.
Hiring a former Buff wasn't the mistake. The mistake was that we could only find one who lacked the background necessary (as you say, Mac said himself, he needed to do some on-the-job training for a few years).
The mistake was compounded by JE hiring a friend who was not competent enough to lead the offense. Trust me, leading this offense without play-makers was a huge challenge and EB proved not up for it. Further compounded by a lost DC who could not figure out how to even slow down the spread teams.
Allbuffs states that Mac knew how bad it would be. Why did Jon Embree not do this? Jon Embree set expectations this year that a bowl game was possible. Is that consistent with the view that you are now stating that this was such a mess and more time was needed? How does the head coach go from talking about bowl games, talking in the locker room about piling on the score against the CSU Rams (not just a win, but a statement win), to looking up at the scoreboard at halftime and being down 55-0 against Fresno State?
I believe this was a mess that JE inherited. I believed we were a 3 win team this year. I believed that it would take slow and steady progress to dig ourselves out. Our fan base could have been sold this message.
Instead, we did not get better, we got much worst. Recruiting didn't get better. Not because these guys can't recruit, but because recruits can see. They see what the fanbase who doesn't wear blinders can see. A bigger mess.
JE should have cobbled together a much better staff. He should have taken more time and care on that front and probably should have brought Mac in as a consultant to help him and then announced his hires more slowly. A staff what maybe would helped fill the gaps where JE just didnt know. The part EB is strange. If memory serves he was also a target and some kind of deal was reached that brought EB in as OC. Which in the end did not serve either man.
I don't get why you guys are attacking AllBuff on this. This is exactly how I feel. Save your energy for leveraging this to support resourcing the program appropriately. The entire Administration's future should hinge on this decision, not just Bohn but Benson and DiStephano as well. As a former player I agree in priniciple with what AllBuff says here. There are plenty of flamethrowers on both sides of this issue right now. Neither side is really doing anything to help the situation.
So, if I may summarize this, after Hawkins was fired, EVERYONE wanted a coach that would bring stability and tradition to a job that was going to be terribly hard for a few years? And the #1 solution offered to that problem was a coach who had been out of coaching for (at the time) 16 years, who would take over on a short-term basis until his hand picked protege' was ready? To me, the whole idea of an interim "training coach" seems to argue against the stability that you say EVERYONE wanted. And for a job that was going to be such a difficult undertaking that nobody could possibly survive it, adding the difficulty of adapting to the changes that have happened in 16 years of being completely out of the game seems to be an unnecessary added challenge.
To follow that, it seems that you are saying that the problems CU has now are because it chose to skip the training wheels and give the job directly to Jon Embree, who you seem to acknowledge was not ready for the job (that acknowledgement is implicit in the plan to bring in Mac for a while). Not mentioned is that Embree then chose two coordinators with no/minimal experience as coordinators (as he himself had none) to be his lieutenants in this endeavor. This, I assume, is not to be blamed on anybody but Embree himself. And given the fact that in the initial plan he was to be given a mentor to hold his hand while he learned the job of being a head coach, it seems to be a poor choice. Almost as if Embree himself rejected the idea of needing to be propped up by experience.
Or, perhaps it just speaks to where this whole thing really went off the rails. Which is the idea that stability could only be provided by a buff. And tradition could only be provided by a buff. And the coaching staff could only be comprised of buffs. The fact is that by your own narrative, CU was provided with two choices - a former buff who had been retired for 16 years or a former buff without the background to do the job. This job was so difficult that those two candidates were the only two who could possibly handle it. Not an experienced current college head coach with a winning resume'. Not an innovative college coordinator ready to take over a program, with a current background in a highly successful college program. Nope, the only choices we could possibly consider were a buff who had never been even a coordinator and a buff who had been retired since before Bill Clinton ran for re-election. Who, ironically, came to Colorado as a Tiger alum and long-term Wolverine coach and brought stability and tradition.
So people can feel free to blame Mike Bohn, Allbuffs and everything else from traffic congestion on Highway 36 to the closing of Tulagi's for what happened to Jon Embree. When, in reality, he was much more the victim of an ill-conceived, short-sighted and incestuous plan hatched largely by the very same people who are now boiling over with rage at CU for the fact that their plan was, predictably, a disaster. Insisting on a buff to be the coach at that point in the program's history, when there was not a buff out there that any other school would consider as a head coach was bad enough. Doubling down on it by insisting on filling the staff with buffs when there were none with experience in those roles was tantamount to suicide. Had they not insisted that the only people who could be considered for a coaching job at Colorado were "buffs", which limited the field to a man who had been retired for a decade and a half and an unprepared (by their own admission) career position coach, nobody, not Mike Bohn, not Bill McCartney, not Eric Bieniemy or Greg Brown or Kanavis McGhee or Brian Cabral, not the CU fan base and not the CU alums in the media, and most especially not Jon Embree, would find themselves in the position they are in today. The insistence of prioritizing some kind of CU bona fides over actual, current, relevant coaching experience was the crucial mistake that set CU and Jon Embree up to fail. And I think we all know where that insistence originated, and it was not in Mike Bohn's office. Perhaps it is time for some people to take some time and consider their own failures here.
At the end of the day coaches are hired to win, and Embree did nothing but lose and lose spectacularly. He should have never been up for the job of coaching a major conference team, he wasn't qualified. He was hired because he was a former player, certain "insiders" wanted him hired, and they couldn't afford anyone else. It was nepotism involving the Buff family. As for Bohn and the president, they better get this hire right because I'm about ready for them to clean house starting at the top.
And I also shared Mac's view of these being lean years. But Embree started digging his grave when he started talking about going bowling. That was beyond foolish and shows the poor judgement he exhibited, which has been reinforced with his firing.
Well, I have to agree with several of Allbuff's points.
All this season I kept thinking about how Mac and others said it was going to be really bad the first few years, and that we needed to have the commitment to last it out 4-5 years. With the current age of instant gratification there is no way this is going to work and JE was fired. (Yes, this year was a step further back than anyone expected, I know, and I don't necessarily disagree with the firing either, just pointing it out).
I do appreciate JE and EB for the things they did accomplish, even if it wasn't shown on the football field.
-No scandals, seriously, never heard much negative publicity about player conduct off the field
-GPA of the players, something like best GPA the team has ever had in the history of CU Football.
-Buffs 4 Life, seems to have a great mission
-Brought back the alumni and passion to the fanbase. Shoot, people were calling for Embree's head louder the Hawkins' head!
Now time to move on to the next chapter, hooray for PAC12 TV money!
I wish there was some way we could keep Cabral and EB though, but EB would have to be a postion coach, he was in way over his head as OC.
can I agree with everyone?
Not so far.
Or anyone, for that matter.
If I may "summarize"... :rofl2:
Separate names with a comma.