*** Official 2015 Utah @ Colorado Basketball Game Thread ***

[Quattro]

People aren't jumping on you for saying those two things. They are on you for saying, "We'll beat them," in the middle of it.

Stop predicting wins. In football and basketball.

You know, Rugged, I don't really care. Quit trying to rule the basketball forum as a area where only things that you like can be posted. It's a forum, get over it. I have just as much right to post anywhere and what I want within the rules anywhere on the site, and thats exactly what I am going to do, Sally.

 

[Darth Snow]

You know, Rugged, I don't really care. Quit trying to rule the basketball forum as a area where only things that you like can be posted. It's a forum, get over it. I have just as much right to post anywhere and what I want within the rules anywhere on the site, and thats exactly what I am going to do, Sally.

No one is trying to rule the basketball forum except me.

Also, you need to stop "predicting" wins. Please.

 

[Quattro]

No one is trying to rule the basketball forum except me.

Also, you need to stop "predicting" wins. Please.

I'm gonna have ro disagree, Rugged is trying to run it so only things he likes get posted by posters he liked.

I'm going to continue to post my opinions. I didn't call anyone out, just stated my opinion. If that's disallowed then what's the point of a forum?

 

[TimmyDUBs]

When did the basketball forum become such a soap opera?

 

[Darth Snow]

When did the basketball forum become such a soap opera?

same way the football forum did. when we started losing.

 

[slider]

C H I L L

 

[89BUFF89]

Maybe start predicting odds of a CBI invite at this point of our lost season...wonder if Tad would decline it?

 

[Daaah]

Maybe start predicting odds of a CBI invite at this point of our lost season...wonder if Tad would decline it?

I would certainly hope not.

 

[seattlebuff]

I would certainly hope not.

I predicted the CBI about 10 games ago, and took a lotta **** on this board for it. Now, we'll be fortunate to get a CBI bid. Hell, we'll be lucky to win again, and that's not hyperbole. We all assumed Cal was a guarantee at home but that's no certainty now. And then the road, ugh ...

 

[Quattro]

I predicted the CBI about 10 games ago, and took a lotta **** on this board for it. Now, we'll be fortunate to get a CBI bid. Hell, we'll be lucky to win again, and that's not hyperbole. We all assumed Cal was a guarantee at home but that's no certainty now. And then the road, ugh ...

1. You took a lot of **** because that was before Scott, XJ, and Hopkins got hurt. New **** came to light after the fact. The team isn't good, but with even 2 of those healthy we probably would have beat ASU and UW putting us at 6-4. Injuries have killed this team. By claiming what you are claiming, you believe the season would have gone the same way, but to me it seems likely that if we had Scott and/or XJ for the ASU and UW games those two would have ended differently. Teams who lose two of their best players at the same time tend to struggle.

2. It is complete hyperbole to claim that we won't win again this year. The team can beat every team at home sans Arizona at home that we have remaining, and can beat UW or WSU on the road. Scott should be back. Ski should be back. XJ should be back. KenPom has us at 14-16 on the season, so there's that.

 

[tante]

Now we have the person who thinks we will win every game arguing with the one who thinks we will lose every game. Just ****ing fantastic

 

[jsmilkst]

I'm picking the recovery. And 1 surprise in Vegas. Optimist? Maybe. But it's more fun than being negative all the time

 

[89BUFF89]

Now we have the person who thinks we will win every game arguing with the one who thinks we will lose every game. Just ****ing fantastic

:lol:

 

[89BUFF89]

Hey, maybe one of these guys will turn into a Carlon Brown and will the team to PAC tourney title? Well, we can dream.

 

[seattlebuff]

1. You took a lot of **** because that was before Scott, XJ, and Hopkins got hurt. New **** came to light after the fact. The team isn't good, but with even 2 of those healthy we probably would have beat ASU and UW putting us at 6-4. Injuries have killed this team. By claiming what you are claiming, you believe the season would have gone the same way, but to me it seems likely that if we had Scott and/or XJ for the ASU and UW games those two would have ended differently. Teams who lose two of their best players at the same time tend to struggle.

2. It is complete hyperbole to claim that we won't win again this year. The team can beat every team at home sans Arizona at home that we have remaining, and can beat UW or WSU on the road. Scott should be back. Ski should be back. XJ should be back. KenPom has us at 14-16 on the season, so there's that.

I was saying CBI after the @Utah game (when Scott and XJ got hurt). And sure, injuries have hurt us badly. But I was mostly basing it on what I saw at the beginning of the year when everyone was healthy: we have zero perimeter threats outside of Ski (how many NCAA/NIT teams can you say that about?), our PG play is weak sauce and none of our guards can create offense on their own besides Ski. I didn't see any offensive improvement in Wes over the summer and Scott seemed to have stagnated as well, floating around outside instead of posting up strong. And we weren't playing Tadball defense as well as last year. Add that all up, and it didn't look promising even in December.

 

[Quattro]

I was saying CBI after the Utah game (when Scott and XJ got hurt). But I was mostly basing it on what I saw at the beginning of the year when everyone was healthy: we have zero perimeter threats outside of Ski (how many NCAA/NIT teams can you say that about?), our PG play is weak sauce and none of our guards can create offense on their own besides Ski. I didn't see any offensive improvement in Wes over the summer and Scott seemed to have stagnated as well, floating around outside instead of posting up strong. And we weren't playing Tadball defense as well as last year. Add that all up, and it didn't look promising even in December.

Well, we have XJ shooting 40.4% (21-52), Hopkins shooting 36.4% (13-32), Fletcher shooting 52% (13-25), Talton shooting 35.6% (16-45...SHOOT MORE DAMMIT), and finally Ski shooting 38.3% (44-115). I am going to have to strongly disagree with you about not having any perimeter threats outside of Ski. The sophomores need to shoot more when they have a look, and so does Talton. XJ just needs to keep his head on straight and quit acting like an idiot. Wes is still too passive on offense. We have guys that can shoot, but we pass up way too many good looks that leads to a turnover most of the time it seems, and that is kind of backed up by our terrible turnover percentage. And yes, we need a PG who will run the offense, Dom is the future, but his injuries have hurt and he needs to get in the gym and put on a lot of muscle from March through November.

I firmly believe that things are more mental with this team than it is actual ability. This team needs to grow up and this team needs a vocal leader. We also need Dom to progress, him getting hurt at the start of the year and then 1/3rd of the way through the year with his wrist has really hurt his development, and the team's development. I don't know what happened on Saturday, but that seems like an anomaly at home this season. Utah is a really, really good team this year...we'll bounce back this week against Cal.

 

[ahoelsken]

Maybe start predicting odds of a CBI invite at this point of our lost season...wonder if Tad would decline it?

That's my question-I've said we'd definitely benefit from playing basketball well into March, regardless of the tournament. I also think its a conversation that we don't need to have for a couple weeks-This team is capable (I'm not predicting 2-0 this week) of beating both Stanford and Cal at home, especially if Ski plays.

Bottom line from Saturday was this-This team is lost without Ski offensively-Look at games where he's sat for long periods of time with foul trouble (GW comes to mind here).

 

[seattlebuff]

Well, we have XJ shooting 40.4% (21-52), Hopkins shooting 36.4% (13-32), Fletcher shooting 52% (13-25), Talton shooting 35.6% (16-45...SHOOT MORE DAMMIT), and finally Ski shooting 38.3% (44-115). I am going to have to strongly disagree with you about not having any perimeter threats outside of Ski. The sophomores need to shoot more when they have a look, and so does Talton. XJ just needs to keep his head on straight and quit acting like an idiot. Wes is still too passive on offense. We have guys that can shoot, but we pass up way too many good looks that leads to a turnover most of the time it seems, and that is kind of backed up by our terrible turnover percentage.

I firmly believe that things are more mental with this team than it is actual ability. This team needs to grow up and this team needs a vocal leader. We also need Dom to progress, him getting hurt at the start of the year and then 1/3rd of the way through the year with his wrist has really hurt his development, and the team's development. I don't know what happened on Saturday, but that seems like an anomaly at home this season. Utah is a really, really good team this year...we'll bounce back this week against Cal.

3 pt shooting is not the only definition of "perimeter" threats. Do you have access to medium range jump shooting stats? Guessing we're pretty low there and, as you point out, we pass up way too many open looks. And we don't have guys that can drive 2-3 steps, shake the defender and hit the pull-up jumper. That's a perimeter threat. How many times have you seen Talton, JHop, Fletch, Stalzer do that? Very rare. We're afraid to shoot outside unless its a wide open 3.

 

[Quattro]

3 pt shooting is not the only definition of "perimeter" threats. Do you have access to medium range jump shooting stats? Guessing we're pretty low there and, as you point out, we pass up way too many open looks. And we don't have guys that can drive 2-3 steps, shake the defender and hit the pull-up jumper. That's a perimeter threat. How many times have you seen Talton, JHop, Fletch, Stalzer do that? Very rare. We're afraid to shoot outside unless its a wide open 3.

I am not a fan of the mid-range jump shot, it's not efficient and most college players don't shoot it well enough to justify it being a consistent thing. Not all mid-range, but here's 2 point jump shots:

Name	% shots 2pt J	FG% 2pt Jumpers	%assisted 2pt J
Booker, Askia	40.5%	39.2%	10.6%
Gordon, Wesley	38.5%	37.5%	33.3%
Scott, Josh	45.0%	36.0%	33.3%
Johnson, Xavier	27.0%	32.5%	23.1%
Thomas, Dustin	28.8%	30.4%	28.6%
Hopkins, Jaron	22.1%	28.0%	0.0%
Collier, Dominique	26.4%	26.3%	20.0%
Talton, Xavier	35.2%	19.4%	66.7%
Miller, Tory	40.0%	18.8%	66.7%
Fletcher, Tre'Shaun	28.0%	17.4%	0.0%
Stalzer, Eli	10.0%	0.0%	---
Total	33.7%	32.1%	22.4%

For reference, the D1 average for 2ptFG% was 35.7%.

 

[seattlebuff]

I am not a fan of the mid-range jump shot, it's not efficient and most college players don't shoot it well enough to justify it being a consistent thing. Not all mid-range, but here's 2 point jump shots:

Name	% shots 2pt J	FG% 2pt Jumpers	%assisted 2pt J
Booker, Askia	40.5%	39.2%	10.6%
Gordon, Wesley	38.5%	37.5%	33.3%
Scott, Josh	45.0%	36.0%	33.3%
Johnson, Xavier	27.0%	32.5%	23.1%
Thomas, Dustin	28.8%	30.4%	28.6%
Hopkins, Jaron	22.1%	28.0%	0.0%
Collier, Dominique	26.4%	26.3%	20.0%
Talton, Xavier	35.2%	19.4%	66.7%
Miller, Tory	40.0%	18.8%	66.7%
Fletcher, Tre'Shaun	28.0%	17.4%	0.0%
Stalzer, Eli	10.0%	0.0%	---
Total	33.7%	32.1%	22.4%

For reference, the D1 average for 2ptFG% was 35.7%.

Wow, says it all to me ... even worse than I thought. Take Ski out and our guards shoot 21% on jump shots (not even counting Stalzer). Efficient or not, you need some credible threat between the paint and the 3 pt line. It's fundamental. Combine that with the fact that none of them can drive and finish at the rim with any consistency.

So many people on here say that mental issues are the key thing here. I'm not buying that. I played on a state semifinal high school team, and none of the starters hung out with each other, and 2-3 of them openly hated each other (girl-related.) We routinely fought in practice and argued on the bench. But we had 3-4 deadly shooters (2 got full rides to Wichita St and Utah) and a beast inside (went to New Mexico). Talent trumps all. There's plenty examples of teams with infighting that still dominated. Sure, being great teammates and chummy with each other and everybody fully engaged and not ****ing around can overcome some deficiencies. But you have to have the fundamentals and we're missing some key ones: namely assist/TO ratio and outside shooting.

 

[Quattro]

Considering the average for a 2 point jumper is roughly the same as the average for a 3 point shot, and a 3 pointer is worth one more point, I will gladly sacrifice midrange shooting for 3 point shooting. FG% at the rim and 3 point% > 2 point jumper%

 

[Daaah]

Wow, says it all to me ... even worse than I thought. Take Ski out and our guards shoot 21% on jump shots (not even counting Stalzer). Efficient or not, you need some credible threat between the paint and the 3 pt line. It's fundamental. Combine that with the fact that none of them can drive and finish at the rim with any consistency.

So many people on here say that mental issues are the key thing here. I'm not buying that. I played on a state semifinal high school team, and none of the starters hung out with each other, and 2-3 of them openly hated each other (girl-related.) We routinely fought in practice and argued on the bench. But we had 3-4 deadly shooters (2 got full rides to Wichita St and Utah) and a beast inside (went to New Mexico). Talent trumps all. There's plenty examples of teams with infighting that still dominated. Sure, being great teammates and chummy with each other and everybody fully engaged and not ****ing around can overcome some deficiencies. But you have to have the fundamentals and we're missing some key ones: namely assist/TO ratio and outside shooting.

Hell, you can be playing leapfrog on the sideline and still lick the tapir's taint.

 

[Ruckus]

No team will ever be able to only shoot 3s and layups. It is necessary to shoot 2 pt jumpers and obviously very beneficial of you have players who are good at them. If teams took out all of their 2 pt jumpers and tried to replace them with 3s or layups, those percentages would decrease quite a bit because the reason for taking the jumper is usually because a 3 or layup wasn't available. Weird that defenses don't always allow you to take the shot you want.

 

[Buffnik]

No team will ever be able to only shoot 3s and layups. It is necessary to shoot 2 pt jumpers and obviously very beneficial of you have players who are good at them. If teams took out all of their 2 pt jumpers and tried to replace them with 3s or layups, those percentages would decrease quite a bit because the reason for taking the jumper is usually because a 3 or layup wasn't available. Weird that defenses don't always allow you to take the shot you want.

:nod:

And with defenses designed to protect the rim and the arc, you can get some wide flippin' open 2pt jump shots in today's game. Those are easy shots for a good shooter.

What I don't like:

1) Contested 2pt jumpers with time still on the shot clock (unless it's a case of a guy like Ski with a hot hand)

2) Bad court awareness when the player takes a dribble or step to just inside the arc to shoot

 

[aghcsm]

Well, we have XJ shooting 40.4% (21-52), Hopkins shooting 36.4% (13-32), Fletcher shooting 52% (13-25), Talton shooting 35.6% (16-45...SHOOT MORE DAMMIT), and finally Ski shooting 38.3% (44-115). I am going to have to strongly disagree with you about not having any perimeter threats outside of Ski. The sophomores need to shoot more when they have a look, and so does Talton. XJ just needs to keep his head on straight and quit acting like an idiot. Wes is still too passive on offense. We have guys that can shoot, but we pass up way too many good looks that leads to a turnover most of the time it seems, and that is kind of backed up by our terrible turnover percentage. And yes, we need a PG who will run the offense, Dom is the future, but his injuries have hurt and he needs to get in the gym and put on a lot of muscle from March through November.

I firmly believe that things are more mental with this team than it is actual ability. This team needs to grow up and this team needs a vocal leader. We also need Dom to progress, him getting hurt at the start of the year and then 1/3rd of the way through the year with his wrist has really hurt his development, and the team's development. I don't know what happened on Saturday, but that seems like an anomaly at home this season. Utah is a really, really good team this year...we'll bounce back this week against Cal.

Pretty much agree but UDub and CSU seem anomalies also, and if there are too many anomalies they aren't anomalies.

 

[Quattro]

:nod:

And with defenses designed to protect the rim and the arc, you can get some wide flippin' open 2pt jump shots in today's game. Those are easy shots for a good shooter.

What I don't like:

1) Contested 2pt jumpers with time still on the shot clock (unless it's a case of a guy like Ski with a hot hand)

2) Bad court awareness when the player takes a dribble or step to just inside the arc to shoot

Obviously you're not going to get the shot you want all the time, and some of the jumpers are good shots. If Scott has the ball at the FT line and is open, he can take that all damn day. This originally started when I was talking about passing up good looks from 3 that result in a TO. We've had too many good looks from guys who can make 3's that have resulted in a TO because they didn't pull the trigger.

Pretty much agree but UDub and CSU seem anomalies also, and if there are too many anomalies they aren't anomalies.

I was more talking about the effort, or lack of, in the Utah game.

 

[CVilleBuff]

I don't think anyone is saying the team has to be best friends. However, there's clearly a leadership vacuum and murmurs of pretty deep divisions and infighting. In fact, given the constant late to team meeting type crap some guys are pulling, it makes me wonder if even the coaching staff are losing authority and respect from a few guys. No matter how you slice it, leadership vacuum and the resulting chaos is a big problem.

 

[MtnBuff]

C H I L L

This may be the single most intelligent post of the day if not the week, maybe the month.

It's a friggin fan forum, not a gambling site or an unbiased "expert" panel show.

I know it gets tiring to read tini post win predictions before every game, even including stats and charts, only to have them not come true. If he were right much more often nobody would care but we are all a little sensitive after getting beat over the heads on the scoreboard a few to many times.

It is however also a fan forum and tini is a fan. What he is doing isn't any different than the fusker fans who pay extra for a red pickup truck or the fans who get their team logo tattooed onto their bodies. He is allowing himself to be emotionally invested in the Buffs.

If you don't like it ignore it, he isn't posting anything offensive or derogatory, he's not putting anyone down, he's being a fan.

Now if he came on here and said the opposite then I would have a problem. If every game it was "we are going to lose," "we are going to get beat so bad." "we won't win a game all year." then I would have a problem but if you can't get past tini being (irrationally) optimistic then I put that on you.

Now on the other side tini should chill out a bit as well. It's one thing to be a fan and predict wins. At the same time when you do so don't be surprised when people don't agree, lighten up, don't take it personally. Everyone get their opinion, that's what a board is for, as long as it is done in a respectful way.

 

[MtnBuff]

I don't think anyone is saying the team has to be best friends. However, there's clearly a leadership vacuum and murmurs of pretty deep divisions and infighting. In fact, given the constant late to team meeting type crap some guys are pulling, it makes me wonder if even the coaching staff are losing authority and respect from a few guys. No matter how you slice it, leadership vacuum and the resulting chaos is a big problem.

From a talent standpoint this team should be much better than it is.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Most good teams have a guy who is recognized as the leader, as the guy who sets the tone. I don't think this team has that. They don't seem to be accountable to each other or to anyone.

Spencer had his warts but on the floor and off he had the respect of his teammates, even the ones who didn't like him. This team lacks someone who can hold people accountable.

I don't know who that person could be either. The best players don't seem to have the personalities to do it. Stalzer was touted out of HS as a leader but doesn't play enough or well enough to get the respect of his teammates, it is also clear that his priorities are not focused on basketball. Dom may become that guy but right now he is a struggling freshman.

Colleges can't go "sign somebody" mid season to fill a gap like this but I hope that Tad has his eyes on some future guys who can provide this missing piece.

It doesn't help that the coaching staff also seems to be at odds as well.

 

[BuffLuke80]

Mid-range game is a lost art, you hardly see it these days. It's there too, shame guys don't take advantage of it.