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Recruiting the right kind of dogs

Buffnik

Real name isn't Nik
Club Member
Junta Member
I've been saying "dogs", but there's more to it than that. Too much of the talent in the program has been "show dogs". Their games look pretty. They love the spotlight and will play to potential when the game's on national tv or against a big opponent. If it can shine the light on them, they are motivated and perform.

You never get consistency with show dogs. Also, you never build the chemistry and mindset to deal with adversity or handle pressure in the big moments. The team may cruise in those types of games and then hold on, but it has trouble even in those games when the opponent is used to fighting and will scrap to the final whistle. So we see Buff teams that seem to turtle when opponents refuse to stay down, giving up late leads or letting inferior teams claw back into games. Show dogs don't like to fight.

What Tad needs to emphasize in recruiting is junkyard dogs. Their games aren't always pretty. But they find ways to win through extra possessions. The entire program philosophy is built upon this. Control the defensive glass so that opponents get 1 shot and done. Don't give up easy baskets on primary and secondary breaks. Don't commit fouls. Force contested shots in the mid-range as the "soft spot" in the defense. In short, make the opponent earn every point the hard way. And on offense, avoid turnovers while understanding that if you fight to get offensive rebounds then, no matter how ugly it might be to watch, taking 3 shots on a trip in order to get 2 points is just as effective as making the 1st shot... and much more demoralizing to the opponent. Tad's offense is designed to attack the glass and then overwhelm teams with weakside rebounding (or wide open 3s from kickouts) off of the resulting defensive breakdowns. It takes junkyard dogs to attack like that while stopping runouts when the defense gets a rebound.

When I look at the roster we've had, I'm seeing too few guys willing and able to play that style of basketball. Being a junkyard dog is not something a coach can instill in someone who hasn't been like that but was still successful enough his whole life on the court to parlay his talent into a D1 scholarship to a major conference program. Being a junkyard dog is either in your DNA or it's not. And the main failure in recruiting hasn't been a talent problem - this program has as much depth of basketball skill as it ever has. The failure has been that the coaches, for all they may pay lip service to it, hasn't put a premium on the body language they see from recruits or on the insights they get from coaches & others on how the recruit deals with adversity or on how they practice or on how they conduct themselves away from the court/spotlight or how they take care of responsibilities such as academics.

As I have preached with football, so with basketball. Don't compromise on competitive character. Get the best players you can from among the players who have that character. Fill the roster with junkyard dogs and they'll beat teams, more often than not, that have more raw talent. And, as the wins pile up, the talent level of the junkyard dogs you can get will also increase.

As a stark warning about going the other way, look no further than Lorenzo Romar. After a ton of success at Washington, he became enamored with talent in the recruiting equation and started taking show dogs instead of junkyard dogs. The result? He started putting the most guys in the NBA while not being able to make the Dance and it eventually got him fired. Fans stopped filling the arena because it's not all that interesting to watch a summer league type exhibition where super talented guys show off their skills but don't win because they can't be bothered with getting dirty.

My belief is that no one will work harder than Tad to analyze what's gone wrong and right within his program. He will come to this same conclusion. And he will fix it by getting show dogs and head cases out of the program while putting the right emphasis on bringing junkyard dogs in. When you look at it, the inescapable conclusion is that success is built on having a roster with the right kind of dogs. Tad's mis-step was that he moved away from that, compromised, as he saw that his teams didn't have enough firepower to be a real threat in the Dance. Hopefully he has now learned that you can't shortcut that because in doing so you lose the very thing that put you in the Dance in the first place.
 
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This.

And I'm fairly sure there are at least two seniors on this past year's team that fit your definition of "show dogs." You didn't name them, and neither will I in a public thread ... but it seems pretty clear to me who you're talking about.
 
This.

And I'm fairly sure there are at least two seniors on this past year's team that fit your definition of "show dogs." You didn't name them, and neither will I in a public thread ... but it seems pretty clear to me who you're talking about.

Yep.

The other thing with this is that show dogs can be charismatic. They put up the numbers, so they have cred as a team leader. And then they can be the guys who, win or lose, are the guys you want to be around that night after the game to find the best parties with the hottest girls. All that stuff undermines the leadership from the junkyard dogs on your team who are not fun to be around when you lose, treat road trips like business trips, and are also telling you after a big win not to get too high because there's a lot of work to do and we're not good enough.
 
So much agreement with the posts above. I want guys who would rather die than lose. Have a nasty streak in them and will get in your face whether they are playing AZ or WA or Ft Lewis for that matter. I know teams have off nights. All teams do. But this team was soft and needed a "junkyard dog" to take a bite out of one of his own if he does not buy in. I am so pissed looking at the teams we played with or beat this year are doing or have done in the Tourney. Need to change the culture of the program be that with new type of player being recruited or the tone being set by the staff. It has to change. The team has to get to the point that losing is the worst thing that can happen. Right now, you hear that from Tad but it is missing from the culture. Need some nasty in the program
 
I think the recruiting analysis is spot on. In his first few years, Tad had Sabatino Chen and Nate Tomlinson, guys who would fight constantly. They made sure everyone on the court fought with them. However, they weren't very talented, and Tad recognized this. Roberson was a step up in talent and also fought like a dog, so he succeeded. I think Spencer and Josh Scott also fit this model well. The work came first, and then their talent let them thrive. Then the ratio became skewed. You don't need all fighters, but you definitely need more than we have. The good news is, I don't think we as fans are the first to realize this. The misses of the last few years hurt, but I think we're getting back on track
 
I thought that Frank Martin's exchange with the reporter for SI Kids capsulized this:

SI Kids reporter: “When you coach or teach your team defense, what’s more important, technique or attitude?”

Martin: “First of all, a lot of respect to you. that’s a heck of a question. I’ve been doing this a long time, and that’s the first time anyones’s ever asked me that, thats a heck of a question. Attitude comes first. We gotta have guys that are gonna believe in our mission, that are going to believe in what we do. Once they believe, then we can teach them the technique.”

http://www.sbnation.com/college-bas...7634/south-carolina-frank-martin-kid-reporter

Recruit 1st for attitude. If the prospect doesn't have the attitude, move on. Without the attitude, there's no way to complete the mission so the talent becomes irrelevant.
 
I thought that Frank Martin's exchange with the reporter for SI Kids capsulized this:

SI Kids reporter: “When you coach or teach your team defense, what’s more important, technique or attitude?”

Martin: “First of all, a lot of respect to you. that’s a heck of a question. I’ve been doing this a long time, and that’s the first time anyones’s ever asked me that, thats a heck of a question. Attitude comes first. We gotta have guys that are gonna believe in our mission, that are going to believe in what we do. Once they believe, then we can teach them the technique.”

http://www.sbnation.com/college-bas...7634/south-carolina-frank-martin-kid-reporter

Recruit 1st for attitude. If the prospect doesn't have the attitude, move on. Without the attitude, there's no way to complete the mission so the talent becomes irrelevant.
I saw that, it was cool as hell. I agree with Martin completely, great question by the young man as well.
 
Your statement about the evaluation process certainly appears to be true. They seem to be in love with raw talent or potential and have consistently missed seeing the character flaws in a lot of players.

You can bring in a few of the show dog types but only if they are going to be going into an environment with a lot of the junkyard dogs and even some sled dogs, the guys who don't know how to do anything but work hard and keep moving toward the goal.

Speaking of sled dogs it is also obvious to me that he hasn't been consistently finding that lead dog, the guy who is an unquestioned leader, the guy who won't accept less than everyone pulling in the same direction. We had it with Spencer, we had a couple with Burks and Higgins, we haven't had many other than that.

I had a post in a thread about Coach Payne building the confidence in the women to go out and play their game without fearing mistakes. I sometimes wonder if Tad is resistant to going after those strong character guys because he is afraid he will lose control of what is happening on the floor and he wants to be the man in charge at all times.
 
Your statement about the evaluation process certainly appears to be true. They seem to be in love with raw talent or potential and have consistently missed seeing the character flaws in a lot of players.

You can bring in a few of the show dog types but only if they are going to be going into an environment with a lot of the junkyard dogs and even some sled dogs, the guys who don't know how to do anything but work hard and keep moving toward the goal.

Speaking of sled dogs it is also obvious to me that he hasn't been consistently finding that lead dog, the guy who is an unquestioned leader, the guy who won't accept less than everyone pulling in the same direction. We had it with Spencer, we had a couple with Burks and Higgins, we haven't had many other than that.

I had a post in a thread about Coach Payne building the confidence in the women to go out and play their game without fearing mistakes. I sometimes wonder if Tad is resistant to going after those strong character guys because he is afraid he will lose control of what is happening on the floor and he wants to be the man in charge at all times.

If you recruit junkyard dogs, an alpha will always emerge for you. It's their nature.
 
agree with above.....zona and ucla were the pac 12 darlings......dux i hate to say it were the "junkyard dogs" of the pac
 
agree with above.....zona and ucla were the pac 12 darlings......dux i hate to say it were the "junkyard dogs" of the pac

Exactly.

If we're honest with ourselves, the fact is that we'll never be able to recruit the showtime talent of a UCLA and overwhelm teams with finesse basketball. So we need to be the team that no one has any fun playing against.
 
If you recruit junkyard dogs, an alpha will always emerge for you. It's their nature.

Agree, and I want the junkyard dogs but I also want that alpha sleddog, the guy who had an unwavering focus on the goal and won't accept anything other.

We are agreeing but looking at it differently.

I do wonder if Tad is a little bit afraid of having somebody with such a strong attitude that Tad has to worry about him taking over "his" team.

The problem if this is the case is that it holds you back. If you look at the guys who are considered the great college coaches of all time virtually every one of them can be identified with kids who were really strong leaders, kids who may or may not have been the most talented kid on the floor but who were always in charge of what was happening on the floor.

Look how Krzyzewski always has a kid who is ready to take over the emotion of the game. Dean Smith had no problem working with guys like Worthy, Phil Ford, and maybe the strongest personality of them all MJ. Bobby Knight, as much of a control freak as he could be had strong personalities like Alford and Isiah Thomas and Cheaney and Buckner. The greatest coach of all, John Wooden had a list of leaders on the floor to long to list.

In many of these cases the guys listed (certainly not all when looking at MJ, Thomas, and some others) the coaches passed on guys with more raw talent in favor of that character, that competitiveness, that fire that makes a good team a champion.

In the current NCAA it is hard to find a team that has had more talent than Kansas in recent years but it seems that the lack of strong character on the floor to guide them has resulted in them being known as the bracket busters.
 
I do wonder if Tad is a little bit afraid of having somebody with such a strong attitude that Tad has to worry about him taking over "his" team.

Should not be something you worry about. Tad's favorite player he has coached is probably Nate. Nate and him used to be at each others' throats, with Nate being willing to challenge & openly disagree with him. That tension was a good thing, because they had the same mission and were pulling in the same direction. Tad doesn't mind that. He wants that from a leader.
 
Should not be something you worry about. Tad's favorite player he has coached is probably Nate. Nate and him used to be at each others' throats, with Nate being willing to challenge & openly disagree with him. That tension was a good thing, because they had the same mission and were pulling in the same direction. Tad doesn't mind that. He wants that from a leader.

I hope this is the case, I don't see him strongly going after these guys.

The good thing though is that Tad is both highly intelligent and highly driven to succeed.

The weaknesses we see in the program I can guarantee he saw long before us. I don't think he is so wrapped up in "his way" that he isn't willing to change in fact I would bet on it. I think we are going to see Tad go some different directions after this year. As much as we didn't like it he hated it, he will make changes so it doesn't happen again.
 
I hope this is the case, I don't see him strongly going after these guys.

The good thing though is that Tad is both highly intelligent and highly driven to succeed.

The weaknesses we see in the program I can guarantee he saw long before us. I don't think he is so wrapped up in "his way" that he isn't willing to change in fact I would bet on it. I think we are going to see Tad go some different directions after this year. As much as we didn't like it he hated it, he will make changes so it doesn't happen again.

For sure. His frustration with trying to reward/punish with the minutes he gave during game, the part- of full-game suspensions, the sleepwalking on defensive possessions and box outs... as bad as we thought it was, as much as it drove us crazy... there is no doubt in my mind that it was 1,000 times worse from where Tad was sitting. His mistake this year was that he believed that they'd learned their lesson from the 2014-15 season but the fact was that you don't change the spots on a leopard and the difference in 2016-17 is that a couple guys weren't there from the season before while J40 was healthy and able to lead without those others around.
 
I thought that Frank Martin's exchange with the reporter for SI Kids capsulized this

Buffnik with the apropos Frank Martin name drop. Guy has the Cocks in the Final Four for the first time in program history. While I'm watching that game this morning I'm thinking to myself, why not the Buffs?

Martin has recruited some top end talent. You don't make it to the Final Four without a Sindarius Thornwell, Top 50 ESPN recruit and All-Name team to boot. PJ Dozier was a top 20 ESPN recruit. That's a very solid bedrock to build a foundation. From what I've seen those guys are sled dogs with junkyard mentality or whatever you want to call it. They've completely bought in to Frank Martin's defense-first philosophy and the rest of the team falls in line behind them.

But then you fill in the roster with other scrappers. I was very impressed with Maik Kotsar out of Estonia. I have a feeling you don't make it out of Estonia unless you are putting in serious work. You get another guy like Chris Silva, willing to do the dirty work.

So can the South Carolina model work for the Buffs? We aren't recruiting anybody in Thornwell or Dozier's echelon yet. However, next year's recruiting class is as talented on paper as any that CU has seen. Lock them in a room with Chidobe Awuzie and Derrick White and let them out when they understand what kind of sacrifice and hard work it takes to elevate yourself to the next level.
 
I keep hearing how talented next year's class is. Is there ratings to support that? Call me skeptical, but none of the ratings seem to have done much for us since Josh Scott. Is the talent better now than the first team Tad inherited? I don't feel it's really any different.
 
I keep hearing how talented next year's class is. Is there ratings to support that? Call me skeptical, but none of the ratings seem to have done much for us since Josh Scott. Is the talent better now than the first team Tad inherited? I don't feel it's really any different.

Evan Battey (PF/C): 4* on ESPN & Scout, Top 150 on Rivals and Scout, Top 200 on 247
D'Shawn Schwartz (SF): 4* and Top 100 on every site
Tyler Bey (SF/PF): 4* on Rivals, Scout & 247, Top 100 on 247, Top 150 on Rivals & Scout
Top 25 ranked class on Rivals and 247. #40 on ESPN. Outside Top 25 on Scout (only 1-25 loading for me)

And then the 2 guys we know CU is looking at:
Malik Ondigo (C): high 3* (Top 200 on 247) with offers from BC, DePaul, KSU, Memphis, Minnesota, Pitt, Purdue, TCU, TTU & Wazzu
Jermaine Jackson Jr (PG): mid 3* with offers from Auburn, DePaul, GA Tech, Northwestern, SMU & Syracuse

Already the best class we've seen at CU and could go to another level.
 
Tad has recently talked about emphasizing toughness in recruiting. I think we have to realize that we are often prisoners to a few talented players out of our state each year. Sometimes that's White & Scott but, more often they are players who are happy with the status quo.

The staff needs to be a lot discerning of the players that they are getting from Southern California. We're stuck with what we get from Colorado. Also, stop giving scholarships to players who don't belong at the high major level. There's been little proof that Tad is a great developer of talent. Stop thinking you're going to turn Stalzer into Tomlinson, Guz into Dufault, Strating into idk what.
 
It will be up to Tad to instill the mean streak and junkyard attitude. I want to have the Pac 12 hate our team. Not dirty but fighting for everything. Every loose ball. Every rebound. Trying to block every shot.

Tad has done a good job of changing the overall culture of a horrible program and set it up with expectations. He now needs to change the culture one more time to get to the next level. It can happen at CU and I think Tad will get it done. We cannot be soft or a finesse team moving forward.
 
I hope we get a few Airedales, a Black Russian Terrier or two, maybe a Portuguese Water Dog, and an English Sheephound.
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black-russion-dog.jpg


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sheepdoghero.jpg
 
Evan Battey (PF/C): 4* on ESPN & Scout, Top 150 on Rivals and Scout, Top 200 on 247
D'Shawn Schwartz (SF): 4* and Top 100 on every site
Tyler Bey (SF/PF): 4* on Rivals, Scout & 247, Top 100 on 247, Top 150 on Rivals & Scout
Top 25 ranked class on Rivals and 247. #40 on ESPN. Outside Top 25 on Scout (only 1-25 loading for me)

And then the 2 guys we know CU is looking at:
Malik Ondigo (C): high 3* (Top 200 on 247) with offers from BC, DePaul, KSU, Memphis, Minnesota, Pitt, Purdue, TCU, TTU & Wazzu
Jermaine Jackson Jr (PG): mid 3* with offers from Auburn, DePaul, GA Tech, Northwestern, SMU & Syracuse

Already the best class we've seen at CU and could go to another level.
Is there a quantitative comparison say to the class with King?
 
I think the recruiting analysis is spot on. In his first few years, Tad had Sabatino Chen and Nate Tomlinson, guys who would fight constantly. They made sure everyone on the court fought with them. However, they weren't very talented, and Tad recognized this. Roberson was a step up in talent and also fought like a dog, so he succeeded. I think Spencer and Josh Scott also fit this model well. The work came first, and then their talent let them thrive. Then the ratio became skewed. You don't need all fighters, but you definitely need more than we have. The good news is, I don't think we as fans are the first to realize this. The misses of the last few years hurt, but I think we're getting back on track

Nailed it ... and on your first post!

And I'm intrigued by your handle ... care to elaborate?
 
Nailed it ... and on your first post!

And I'm intrigued by your handle ... care to elaborate?
I went on a historical tour of Philadelphia once, and they were talking about lesser known founding fathers and figures in Philly. The leader of the Quakers, who ran Pennsylvania at that time, was Benjamin Lay. Because Quakers hate violence, he was a huge abolitionist before it was cool. Basically, he would kidnap other Quaker's kids and say "this is what it's like to buy a slave." Also, he was super short, made and wore his own clothes, and had a hunchback. Hence, he was a hunchback quaker
 
Not sure if this was mentioned or not, but Battey seems to be an extremely high character kid. If Tad can get him to fully buy into his defensive philosophy I think we have the court leader the buffs have been missing.
 
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