Jesus they are ****ing insane after what happened.
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Sandusky update (more evidence against Joe P)
- Thread starter Buffnik
- Start date
Jesus they are ****ing insane after what happened.
And the plaintiffs attorneys start yacth shopping.
The final civil penalties on this case are going to be huge. The PSU donors are going to get to see their school dragged through the dirt and lots of their money distributed to the victims.
not so. at least from where i sit. i know i will take some heat for this. so be it.
the scandal was at the top. it involved... what? 15 to 25 people at the PSU?
the kids and the alumi had no part in it. period. no part.
now, in a way (pay attention to what i am saying here) it is like how all the members of the CU football team were accused of being rapists because none of the women would ever name one of the alleged rapists.
that was never fair and it always appaled me.
same with psu. there are pleanty of good people associated with that university that had not one thing to do wiht what happened. not one g-ded thing.
no. that does not excuse what happened on any level. those people need to get all they have comming to them.
however, there are hundreds of thousands if not millions who are not guilty of what happened. and those people, just as we do and did, have a right to be proud of thier university despite the stupid behavior of some senior officials.
look, what happened there makes me sick. there is no way to defend it. but it was not every person that had/has a connedtion to PSU that played a part here. it was a select few. maybe 12 people or so. i dunno.
however, the psu community is bigger than that. they have a right to still be proud of thier school while at the same time being appauled at what transpired.
the kids who have signed on to play for PSU are definitly not at fault. and to punish them by taking away donations and support is barking up the wrong tree, imo.
i understand the outrage. i get that. i am in the same camp. what was done is beyond my ability to assign any words to it.
however, punish the right people. the kids that went to play for PSU are not at fault. and the people who want to ensure that they have every oppertunity that kids at other schools get are not doing a damn thing wrong. period.
my opinon. now, skewer me if you will.
Sorry but if anyone ****ing donates to a school after it was widely known by the higher ups who covered up the rape is ****ing insane. If CU had this, god forbid, and the entire administration knew about it but let it continue, would you donate? You don't ****ing donate to a school who covered up rapes for years. This is nothing like the scandal we had, not even close.
you are right in the scope of it is not ever comparable. i agree with that.
those people who covered up the scandle are gone. so, who are you punishing now? what is done is done. its now for the legal system to take care of. and i personally hope they all rot in hell. however, the kids and the alumni have a right to see the school through this. PSU is bigger than this scandal. all of those people who are grads of that school and went on to do great things have a right to not let the stupidity of 12 or so people drag them down. that is not right either.
look. what happened was bad. but it was not everyone who went to that school that was involved. it was a select few.
i have no love for penn state. dont get me wong here. and i worked with a guy whose wife was very involved in what happened on the law enforcement side. the stories he told me were heart breaking. that is all i will say about that.
however, punishing those who were not involved is not justice. not in my mind anyway. and that is really my point.
They're gone? I thought they were still there to some degree. That school would never see a dime from me had I been a PSU donor.
You make some very good points. As biased as we are for CU and against other schools every school has a majority of people who are good decent students and faculty trying to create better futures for families. Those people don't deserve to be and should not be painted with the brush of Sandusky and the people who enabled him.
On the other hand there are also a big number of people associated with the program who still refuse to believe that JoePa had any culpability in this situation. There are people who believe that whatever JoePa wanted he should have gotten and his judgement should not be called into question. There are those who will still believe that JoePa and the administration had no knowledge of what was happening and are being unfairly painted. Mostly there are those who believe that things should continue just as they have without any changes.
Unfortunately innocent athletes and students will suffer for it but the entire PSU football program and school administration has to be punished and punished hard for letting this happen as long as it did and for having a system in place where a football coach could make a decision that a former assistant coach and hanger on to the program could continue to abuse children so that the football program didn't suffer negative publicity.
For Paterno his legacy will now be that of an enabler for a pedophile. Curley and Schmidt are likely to do some well deserved jail time and lose significant amounts of their net worth in the lawsuits. Spanier was forced to resign, will likely never get another substantial job in educational administration and also may be subject to civil penalties. Some other PSU administrators are likely to have their careers ended as well as some in the PSU police and DA's office potentially.
Even with all this a message has to be sent. Paterno had the power to cover this up and the administration went along because the football program means huge amounts of money to the university. It is hard to measure but how much of that $208 million in donations came from supporters of the football team but it is fair to say that a successful team on the field has a measurable impact on donations to all parts of the university. This money and influence is what led the university to let a football coach put his program ahead of the safety of the kids.
The only way to make sure that real change happens at PSU and that other schools think twice before making similar mistakes is to seriously impact that money stream. Considering the nature of the abuse and the amount of money involved justice would be served and the message would be sent with civil awards in the tens of millions of dollars. Less than that and the message is that putting the program in front of the victims pays off.
great. noted. i am not talking about those idots. they are pathetic and will never be reached. and account for about what? 3% of the PSU community? i would guess? and i think i am being a bit generous.
sorry, its getting late and the wife just came home so i will leave it at this.
Agree with 4dem. The whole situation is filthy. But, if it happened at CU, no one here is donating to the university again?
PSU is a community of decent people. I know and have worked with many of them. Their leadership failed them. It doesn't mean they have to give up on their community.
Having said that, IMO, their athletic department should voluntarily give it up for 3-5 years and allow current student-athletes to transfer without recourse.
PSU is a community of decent people. I know and have worked with many of them. Their leadership failed them. It doesn't mean they have to give up on their community.
Having said that, IMO, their athletic department should voluntarily give it up for 3-5 years and allow current student-athletes to transfer without recourse.
CVilleBuff
Well-Known Member
4Dem is spot on, hate to rain on the parade.
So how do you penalize the school in a way that makes other schools unlikely to repeat it with out penalizing the "innocent" members of the PSU community.
This isn't a case of hate towards those who had no knowledge of Sandusky and what he was doing who then reacted with disgust when they found out. Rather this is aimed at the school administration who put the "reputation" of the school ahead of the safety of the future victims of Sandusky. This is about JoePa ignoring what Sandusky told him, about Curley, Schmidt, and Spanier letting Paterno decide that Sandusky gets to keep bringing children around and not to report to child protective services.
This isn't taking into account the thousands who demonstrated when JoePa was fired, Who stood by him to the end.
It is true that thousands of innoncent people who love Penn State and love Penn State football but don't support this kind of behavior will be hurt by penalties to the AD. Hundreds of student athletes will be effected as well.
Despite all these people this is a serious enough situation that you can't just say fire a few people, say we are sorry and keep on as if nothing more needed to be done. The important thing here is to make it clear in the future to any other school (or other organization) that may be tempted to ignore something like this that it will not be acceptable. It is also important to send a message to the victims that Joe Paterno and Penn State Football are not more important than they are. No amount of money will ever make this go away but it will send a message that society doesn't think what happened to them is okay. If some Penn State football fans don't get to pretend like nothing major happened and life goes on so be it. The victims are way more important that Penn State football.
This isn't a case of hate towards those who had no knowledge of Sandusky and what he was doing who then reacted with disgust when they found out. Rather this is aimed at the school administration who put the "reputation" of the school ahead of the safety of the future victims of Sandusky. This is about JoePa ignoring what Sandusky told him, about Curley, Schmidt, and Spanier letting Paterno decide that Sandusky gets to keep bringing children around and not to report to child protective services.
This isn't taking into account the thousands who demonstrated when JoePa was fired, Who stood by him to the end.
It is true that thousands of innoncent people who love Penn State and love Penn State football but don't support this kind of behavior will be hurt by penalties to the AD. Hundreds of student athletes will be effected as well.
Despite all these people this is a serious enough situation that you can't just say fire a few people, say we are sorry and keep on as if nothing more needed to be done. The important thing here is to make it clear in the future to any other school (or other organization) that may be tempted to ignore something like this that it will not be acceptable. It is also important to send a message to the victims that Joe Paterno and Penn State Football are not more important than they are. No amount of money will ever make this go away but it will send a message that society doesn't think what happened to them is okay. If some Penn State football fans don't get to pretend like nothing major happened and life goes on so be it. The victims are way more important that Penn State football.
Unfortunately, many innocent PSU fans and employees are going to be hurt by the outcome. Not much anyone can do about that. And even innocent people helped create the over the top environment.
I don't think we disagree. PSU AD deserves very serious consequences, including, IMO, a 3-5 year death penalty. But we don't need to crucify every person that went to PSU or has PSU ties. We should feel sorry for them, if anything.
The only people getting critized that are PSU alums are the people who still think Paterno and the rest of the administration did no wrong and it was all Sandusky despite evidence to the contrary. The ****ing university tried to name Beaver Stadium after Paterno at one point. That shows zero remorse to me. The people who still donate while the same administration is still there despite what has happened in the past months shows how ****ing insane and delusional they are.
Uh, I'm pretty sure the admin is gone.
And people were still donating early in the process. They didn't just start donating.
I respect this topic enough not to turn it into a bitchfest. Having said that - if that is what you meant, watch your tense or phrase it differently.
Some is, some is still there although I would expect that they are in the process of turning over all of the remainding individuals who had contact with this situation.
I do think that the student athletes should be released from their scholarship commitments and allowed to transfer without penalty. It was acknowledged in the trial that members of the coaching staff had at least some knowledge of Sandusky, they should be gone as well. I think and LOIC penalty is appropriate, not a death penalty but schollies and bowls.
As I said before, make it clear to any other school that putting the program ahead of reporting a crime isn't going to be allowed. I think that for clarity purposes the NCAA also needs to create specific regulations that say that if the people in charge of a program knowingly and willingly cover up and fail to report felonies, especially crimes against persons (pedophilia, rape, etc.) that specific NCAA penalties will apply as these affect the reputation and fairness of the game. We now have this case as well as the Baylor case as prime examples of where this would fit.
I hear what you are saying mtn, but how does covering up child rape (PSU) and murder (Baylor) not equate to the death penalty when impermissible benefits have (SMU)? I'm not asking you to answer that question, just a question I have for the magical wizard of the NCAA.
BlackNGold
Club Member
This whole thing is going to go down as one of the biggest F**K ups of all time involving a lot of people who should of known better. Regardless of what PSU supporters think - there will be no legacy for Paterno. Although the scale is much smaller this is akin to some of the great evil that occurred in the past when people stood by and did nothing to stop evil - The Spanish Inquisition, The Salem witch trials, the Holocaust, etc. As Edmund Burke said: "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
Paterno's inaction in the face of evil goes way beyond the shenanigans Barry Switzer and Jackie Sherrill both of whom JP castigated for their "wicked ways". History will forgive you some mistakes and missteps that are part of the human condition but not what occurred under Joe P's watch.
Regardless of any good that he may of accomplished, Joe Paterno will not have or deserve any respect in my mind.
Paterno's inaction in the face of evil goes way beyond the shenanigans Barry Switzer and Jackie Sherrill both of whom JP castigated for their "wicked ways". History will forgive you some mistakes and missteps that are part of the human condition but not what occurred under Joe P's watch.
Regardless of any good that he may of accomplished, Joe Paterno will not have or deserve any respect in my mind.
Penn State deserves the Death Penalty. Clearly no message has been received among their players, community, alumni, etc. To me that signals tolerance for rape and pedophilia across an entire community. Kinda messed up.
BlackNGold
Club Member
Should the NCAA give CU the death penalty for Ward Churchill's Statements or Rae Carruth's involvement in the murder for hire. People seem to get upset with the NCAA for what they believe is overstepping their bounds in their sports related rulings (see Jeremy Bloom) and now you want them to get involved where they definitely don't belong. Although the people involved were associated with the football program - none of the activities were anything that the NCAA has enforcement responsibility for nor should they. The criminal justice system has taken care of Sandusky (and hopefully a few others will be brought to trial) and the Civil System will take care of the cover up. How broad do you want to make the NCAA's powers? Just have them step in whenever they want to make themselves judge and jury. No Thank You. The NCAA is wise to stay out of this.
I think that in this case you make a case for lack of institutional control. The coach was calling the shots and the administration let him in violation of the law. The trouble is that LOIC is the extent of what they can penalize for based on the NCAA regs. That is why I state that they need to put in a specific regulation that deals with failure to report violent felonies. If you want to in that regulation penalize with the death penalty I would have no problem. I understand BNG's argument but have two reasons why it is the NCAA's business. One is that every time something like this happens it impacts all of college sports, not just the school involved.
Secondly the NCAA is an association of educational institutions. Above and beyond all other considerations schools have a moral and legal requirement to provide all students and staff with a reasonably safe environment, the athletic programs are a big and visible part of this. it is in the interest of the NCAA to have regulations that support this end consistently across all members.
Yep. Churchill being a dick and Carruth's crime. Both overseen by the CU AD and president. They tried to keep Ward silent, but they just couldn't do it.
On that note, NCAA better be bringing the hammer on OU for AP's recent transgressions. OU's president should've known better. :huh:
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BehindEnemyLines
beware the habu
If you're gonna run a program, charitable or otherwise, and you use the institutional name in any way, and you conduct the camp/event on the grounds of the institution, then by God yes, the institution is accountable in some way. And as much as I detest the NCAA, they have an obligation to look into possible sanctions. These hideous events occurred because of a coach who was certified by the ncaa, using the name of an athletic program recognized and sanctioned by the ncaa, and on the grounds of a college that is an institutional member of the ncaa.
Do the right thing, ncaa. This must never happen again.
Do the right thing, ncaa. This must never happen again.
^^This, absolutely this^^
When it comes to the safety of kids, it is the business of the NCAA when a member institution is acting in a way that puts kids at risk and has the member institutions name on it.
In this case Sandusky used the PSU name, their grounds, access to their student athletes and coaches to groom his victims. We now know that PSU could have stopped it and didn't.
While I understand your sentiments (and RDB's) and share them, the NCAA has no part to play in this situation. As an organization of member institutions, it is governed by a set of by-laws that strictly limit its jurisdiction over those institutions' athletics programs. As such, and as I've said before, if the program didn't gain an unfair recruting advantage through its activities (which it didn't) and payoffs to players in the program aren't involved (they aren't), then the NCAA can't do a thing.
In the end, it doesn't matter, since this will be handled in the courts, both civil and criminal.
OTOH, I'm not familiar with the B1G's by-laws ... but if they have a measure that allows sanction by the conference of a member school for this kind of malfeasance, maybe they can sanction Pedo State for this crap. But I don't know that they do.
You are correct in that the big penalties are going to come in the courts. The NCAA is very limited in it's what it has on the books to deal with this situation. On the other hand they do have some things that will apply. The regs are complicated enough and extensive enough that if they want to find some things to make stick they can. Look at the crap they threw at CU for meals for walk-ons. Sandusky running around the facilities and having contact with current players and potential recuits should provide some areas that they can target.
As I stated above this kind of stuff does impact the NCAA and the ability of it's member institutions to conduct business and accomplish their missions. They need to put into the regulations specific requirements about the reporting of violent criminal activity. This is an issue that impacts the reputation of college sports as a whole and the ability to keep those involved reasonably safe. We now have PSU, Baylor, and potentially Miami as schools who's involvement and subsequent cover-ups of serious criminal activity occuring on their campuses and in their programs greatly impacts the reputation of NCAA member institutions as a whole. This makes it the NCAA's business and they need to draft regulations to deal with it.