Sandusky update (more evidence against Joe P)

[J.R. Ewing]

All this talk about the death penalty has concentrated on the impact it will have on Penn St. Remember, Penn St is a member of the Big 10 conference and as such, has certain contractual obligations that need to be met.

The only time the death penalty was ever imposed, it was a contributing factor to the collapse of an entire conference. While I think the Big 10 is strong enough to withstand something like this, it would be hard to overcome. I suspect Penn State would just be kicked out of the conference altogether, with somebody like Pitt, ND or Syracuse taking their place.

Unless they could bring in someone immediately, they would have to cancel their conf championsip game.

 

[L Buff]

Unless they could bring in someone immediately, they would have to cancel their conf championsip game.

And Syracuse is already slated to go to the ACC.

 

[NashBuff]

The Penn State fans are the biggest losers after the victims. We should sympathize with them after going through that rape scandal last decade.

I wouldn't mind seeing CU and Penn State play in that Pac-12 & B1G challenege if it comes back on.

 

[L Buff]

The Penn State fans are the biggest losers after the victims. We should sympathize with them after going through that rape scandal last decade.

I agree ... and I do feel sorry for the PSU fans, at least the ones who accept reality.


Interesting discussion thread here.

 

[Junction]

Sure, but why didn't they deal with Sandusky when they heard about the first incident? Because they were afraid of the fallout, i.e. they expected a media swarm and that the PSU football program would be tarnished. I can't see any other reason for the cover up. I disagree that they would have avoided the whole thing had they done the right thing in 1998. There would've been some negative attention; certainly nothing like they're getting now. But almost all cover ups spiral out of control eventually.

Remember, we're talking about Joe Paterno and his Penn State program here. If they had come forward the first time they learned about this, the negative attention would have fallen on Sandusky. Penn State, Paterno and the program would have been painted by the media as paragons of virtue, men of honor and character who did the right thing even when it meant exposing a friend. That's the way they were always portrayed - coming forward on something like this probably would have had the media lobbying the Vatican to start canonization proceedings for Paterno on the spot.

Instead they chose to protect the child molester instead of the children and destroyed themselves in the process. They can't suffer enough.

 

[Fight CU]

Remember, we're talking about Joe Paterno and his Penn State program here. If they had come forward the first time they learned about this, the negative attention would have fallen on Sandusky. Penn State, Paterno and the program would have been painted by the media as paragons of virtue, men of honor and character who did the right thing even when it meant exposing a friend. That's the way they were always portrayed - coming forward on something like this probably would have had the media lobbying the Vatican to start canonization proceedings for Paterno on the spot.

Instead they chose to protect the child molester instead of the children and destroyed themselves in the process. They can't suffer enough.

Sandusky must have been a very good friend to each one of the men who lied for him. alternately, ole Jerry was privy to their skeletons...

 

[NW Buff]

All this talk about the death penalty has concentrated on the impact it will have on Penn St. Remember, Penn St is a member of the Big 10 conference and as such, has certain contractual obligations that need to be met.

The only time the death penalty was ever imposed, it was a contributing factor to the collapse of an entire conference. While I think the Big 10 is strong enough to withstand something like this, it would be hard to overcome. I suspect Penn State would just be kicked out of the conference altogether, with somebody like Pitt, ND or Syracuse taking their place.

You know and I know that the collapse of the SWC was entirely UT's fault. Since UT is not in the Big 10, they will be fine.

 

[MtnBuff]

Unless they could bring in someone immediately, they would have to cancel their conf championsip game.

I could very easily see the NCAA determining that the B10 could continue to count PSU as an "inactive" member and keep their championship game. It would make scheduling difficult but not impossible.

The problem with bringing somebody in is what do you do with them when/if you bring PSU back which the B10 would want to do from a revenue standpoint in the future.

Remember that NCAA rules are organizational, not law. They can change and adapt them to fit the situation as they see fit. This case isn't any different.

 

[J.R. Ewing]

I could very easily see the NCAA determining that the B10 could continue to count PSU as an "inactive" member and keep their championship game. It would make scheduling difficult but not impossible.

The problem with bringing somebody in is what do you do with them when/if you bring PSU back which the B10 would want to do from a revenue standpoint in the future.

Remember that NCAA rules are organizational, not law. They can change and adapt them to fit the situation as they see fit. This case isn't any different.

Good point. That would certainly help soften the blow to the other BIG members.

 

[CarolinaBuff]

I could very easily see the NCAA determining that the B10 could continue to count PSU as an "inactive" member and keep their championship game. It would make scheduling difficult but not impossible.

The problem with bringing somebody in is what do you do with them when/if you bring PSU back which the B10 would want to do from a revenue standpoint in the future.

Remember that NCAA rules are organizational, not law. They can change and adapt them to fit the situation as they see fit. This case isn't any different.

Yup, I'm sure the NCAA would give the Big 10 some kind of waiver that would allow them to continue to have a CCG. That aside, I seriously doubt that PSU ends up getting the death penalty.

 

[MtnBuff]

I suspect that they would be smart enough to not fight it. Fighting it would lead to public backlash, and there would be very few outlets for that backlash. Athletically, I could see the rest of the B1G's supporters moving to expel them from the league, and they could forget about getting non-conference opponents for other sports. And it would wreak havoc in recruiting/employment even for normal students "oh, you go/went to that school that put its football program ahead of seeking justice for sexually abused kids."

On the other hand, if they didn't fight it, and just accepted the penalty, the public's attitude would probably tend towards sympathy. I don't think many would say they were treated "unjustly," some of course would, but they would likely be a minority, most people would be on the "yeah, that's tough - I feel bad for some of the players, coaches and students, but I feel worse for the kids. The former will be back soon, the latter may never get all the way there." And, when the program started back up again, most would probably accept that they had paid the penalty, and would probably be willing to wish well upon the new program.

If they were to fight it though - they would become the villains of the NCAA. They would come out on the losing end of every transaction for 20 years: sponsorship, scheduling, poll votes, tv slots, bowl invitations; the list is endless.

The more I think about it, not only do I think that the "right" thing to do for them is to voluntarily shut down the football program (as I said about 40 posts ago), but I also suspect that in the long term it would also be the more profitable course of action. The next two years would suck financially for them, but it's going to suck no matter what happens; and if they don't figure out some way to bring closure to this, it will permanently impair their financial performance. Shutting down the program for a couple years would let them start over - this is America, we believe in second chances, but only after you've paid the price for your ****-ups. Skip paying the price, and the general answer is **** you.

I think you are correct.

The only way that PSU is going to get past this and out of the shadow is to close the program down and clean house both athletically and administratively. Then they come back after a period of time accept responsibility for their errors in judgement, demonstrate how they removed everyone who was involved in the scandal, created a system in which responsibility is clearly defined and transparent to prevent something like this from ever happening again and at the end of it all humbly ask forgiveness.

With JoePa dead, Sandusky locked up for the rest of his natural life, Spanier, Curley, and Shultz turned over to the criminal justice system, and anyone else who could be assigned blame in the system gone it will be hard for the public to maintain their anger at the university. Forgiveness will then start to come and they can get on with their future.

Until PSU accepts responsibility and cleans house the pressure will (rightly) stay on them. They and only they can decide when it is time to stop resisting the obvious and move on.

 

[J.R. Ewing]

It will be interesting to see what happens with Mike McQueary. He's probably protected from termination by Penn's whistleblower law, but it will be tough to put this behind themwith Mike still on the staff.

 

[Dark Bohner]

The more I think about it, not only do I think that the "right" thing to do for them is to voluntarily shut down the football program (as I said about 40 posts ago), but I also suspect that in the long term it would also be the more profitable course of action. The next two years would suck financially for them, but it's going to suck no matter what happens; and if they don't figure out some way to bring closure to this, it will permanently impair their financial performance. Shutting down the program for a couple years would let them start over - this is America, we believe in second chances, but only after you've paid the price for your ****-ups. Skip paying the price, and the general answer is **** you.

I couldn't agree more. I can already hear the TV announcers during the whole season when Penn State were to start up again slurping on the Nittany Lion schlong about how much the school, program, fans etc. has had to go through, and most people would be generally receptive at that point.

 

[skibum]

I couldn't agree more. I can already hear the TV announcers during the whole season when Penn State were to start up again slurping on the Nittany Lion schlong about how much the school, program, fans etc. has had to go through, and most people would be generally receptive at that point.

Hell, I will put up $50 today that says IF they shut down the program (either by penalty or voluntarily) for at least 2 years, ESPN Gameday goes to Happy Valley for their first home game after the hiatus.

 

[BuffNut99]

I don't think that Penn State should get the death penalty, but I think they should be off of TV for a year or two and forced to pay huge $$ penalties, much of it going to charity/education/awareness.

The strangest thing of all of this to me, is that if Paterno were still alive, we'd be talking about him going to jail.

 

[77buff]

The NCAA might just throw any concerns about "jurisdiction" to the winds, and clamp down on Pedo State hard in order to send a message. They would be virtually daring PSU to fight it in court, which would put them in a tricky position. Can you imagine their argument?:

"Yeah ... this whole mess was a sick situation, and an unprecedented **** up ... but you are constrained by your own by-laws from doing anything to us."

That argument might fly in a court of law ... but it will bring outrage upon their heads in the court of public opinion.

If the NCAA does anything - which they won't - it will be a slap on the wrist. They want to forget about this just as much as Penn State, but the civil court procedures will drag on for years.

 

[L Buff]

I don't think that Penn State should get the death penalty, but I think they should be off of TV for a year or two and forced to pay huge $$ penalties, much of it going to charity/education/awareness.

I have a feeling this is what may just happen when all is said and done (and the furor cools off a bit).

The strangest thing of all of this to me, is that if Paterno were still alive, we'd be talking about him going to jail.

While that would be just ... I would not have taken any joy in that. :huh:

 

[MtnBuff]

I don't think that Penn State should get the death penalty, but I think they should be off of TV for a year or two and forced to pay huge $$ penalties, much of it going to charity/education/awareness.

The strangest thing of all of this to me, is that if Paterno were still alive, we'd be talking about him going to jail.

Sooo!

Penn State should get to keep on selling tickets to football games, keep on recieving a share of B10 media revenue, keep on bringing big donors to suites in Beaver Stadium to encourage them to contribute more cash, keep on selling football jerseys and other game momentos. In other words other than being on TV and maybe some recruiting sanctions keep on running business as usuall bringing in millions of dollars.

What is the message in this to out schools facing a similar situation in the future. Keep your mouth shut and if you get caught in the future you get to keep the money coming in with a slap on the wrist.

For the sake of the kids, for the sake of all the future victims, PSU needs to be hammered. PSU needs to know what it means to have no football game to go to on Saturday, and no football revenue as a result of it.

This isn't about vengance, this is about sending a message loud and clear. The lives of innocent victims are much more important the the "reputation" of your sacred football program (or basketball, or marching band.) Do the right thing at the right time and it blows over. Cover it up and you pay for it, enough to make it not worth considering sacrificing the victims. If they aren't going to make the moral decision, make the business decision and turn in the criminals.

 

[BuffNut99]

Sooo!

Penn State should get to keep on selling tickets to football games, keep on recieving a share of B10 media revenue, keep on bringing big donors to suites in Beaver Stadium to encourage them to contribute more cash, keep on selling football jerseys and other game momentos. In other words other than being on TV and maybe some recruiting sanctions keep on running business as usuall bringing in millions of dollars.

What is the message in this to out schools facing a similar situation in the future. Keep your mouth shut and if you get caught in the future you get to keep the money coming in with a slap on the wrist.

For the sake of the kids, for the sake of all the future victims, PSU needs to be hammered. PSU needs to know what it means to have no football game to go to on Saturday, and no football revenue as a result of it.

This isn't about vengance, this is about sending a message loud and clear. The lives of innocent victims are much more important the the "reputation" of your sacred football program (or basketball, or marching band.) Do the right thing at the right time and it blows over. Cover it up and you pay for it, enough to make it not worth considering sacrificing the victims. If they aren't going to make the moral decision, make the business decision and turn in the criminals.

If the football programs shuts down entirely, even for one year, it crushes that local economy. Too much damage to small businesses etc.

What I'm suggesting is hammer the University with monetary penalties. That is the way to clearly set an example and send a message. No other University would take the same risk of "protecting the reputation of the football program" if the monetary penalties were so severe that it does permanent damage to the very same product.

Let them sell tickets, etc., but just take their profits at the end of each year. As far as keeping them off TV, it's more about just letting the topic move to the background for a little while instead of having a very awkward broadcast each week.

 

[L Buff]

If the football programs shuts down entirely, even for one year, it crushes that local economy. Too much damage to small businesses etc.

What I'm suggesting is hammer the University with monetary penalties. That is the way to clearly set an example and send a message. No other University would take the same risk of "protecting the reputation of the football program" if the monetary penalties were so severe that it does permanent damage to the very same product.

Let them sell tickets, etc., but just take their profits at the end of each year. As far as keeping them off TV, it's more about just letting the topic move to the background for a little while instead of having a very awkward broadcast each week.

And as part of their sanctions, the B1G could vote to withhold PSU's share of conference media money ... that's a considerable chunk of change to lose. Plus not being on TV or eligible for the post-season for two years is no small punishment.

 

[MtnBuff]

If the football programs shuts down entirely, even for one year, it crushes that local economy. Too much damage to small businesses etc.

What I'm suggesting is hammer the University with monetary penalties. That is the way to clearly set an example and send a message. No other University would take the same risk of "protecting the reputation of the football program" if the monetary penalties were so severe that it does permanent damage to the very same product.

Let them sell tickets, etc., but just take their profits at the end of each year. As far as keeping them off TV, it's more about just letting the topic move to the background for a little while instead of having a very awkward broadcast each week.

I feel for the local economy and for the members of the community who were not a part of this but they are also a part of the culture that allowed this to happen and that can allow or not allow it to happen again. They are the ones who let Saint JoePa have the final word on anything and everything associated with the program, they are the ones who demonstrated/rioted the night he was fired.

This is going to be hard for a lot of people no matter how it ends up but the only way to restore PSU football and more importantly Penn State University to anything resembling credibility is to blow the football program up and start again. Not being on TV, taking away schollies, telling them not to be bad boys, that really sent a message to USC and earlier to Miami. Miami clearly got the message and stopped all questionable activities within the program.

Sorry businesses and fans but Penn State football needs to go away for a time period, not get a slap on the hand. This is childrens lives that got impacted, this wasn't selling some jerseys or giving some kids mom a trailer to live in. Monetary penalties are not going to be enough, they just got $208 million in donations this year. It has to matter to them if it is going to change anything.

 

[rosstr]

Plus not being eligible for the post-season for two years is no small punishment.

Yeah, no post season really hurt USC. Last I checked they're a MNC favorite, rolling in the blue chips, and favored by 36 against CU.

Ped State deserves the Death Penalty.

 

[L Buff]

Yeah, no post season really hurt USC. Last I checked they're a MNC favorite, rolling in the blue chips, and favored by 36 against CU.

Ped State deserves the Death Penalty.

If you're going to quote me ... post the whole quote:

Plus not being on TV or eligible for the post-season for two years is no small punishment.

USC and Miami IIRC were not banned from TV for the regular season ... just lost schollies and and eligibility for the post-season. Not being on TV at all for two years is quite different. I might be mistaken, but the last major program I remember getting that kind of punishment was Oklahoma in the early 70's. Of course it didn't mean as much back then, because there was only one nationally televised game per weekend anyway, so no one was getting televised much.

 

[dply]

If you're going to quote me ... post the whole quote:




USC and Miami IIRC were not banned from TV for the regular season ... just lost schollies and and eligibility for the post-season. Not being on TV at all for two years is quite different. I might be mistaken, but the last major program I remember getting that kind of punishment was Oklahoma in the early 70's. Of course it didn't mean as much back then, because there was only one nationally televised game per weekend anyway, so no one was getting televised much.

But that would also hurt the conference mates and and OOC teams.

I don't know a good answer for how to handle this though.

 

[BlackNGold]

I feel for the local economy and for the members of the community who were not a part of this but they are also a part of the culture that allowed this to happen and that can allow or not allow it to happen again. They are the ones who let Saint JoePa have the final word on anything and everything associated with the program, they are the ones who demonstrated/rioted the night he was fired.

This is going to be hard for a lot of people no matter how it ends up but the only way to restore PSU football and more importantly Penn State University to anything resembling credibility is to blow the football program up and start again. Not being on TV, taking away schollies, telling them not to be bad boys, that really sent a message to USC and earlier to Miami. Miami clearly got the message and stopped all questionable activities within the program.

Sorry businesses and fans but Penn State football needs to go away for a time period, not get a slap on the hand. This is childrens lives that got impacted, this wasn't selling some jerseys or giving some kids mom a trailer to live in. Monetary penalties are not going to be enough, they just got $208 million in donations this year. It has to matter to them if it is going to change anything.

Isn't that a very broad brush to be using. By that logic every football fan in America is probably part of the culture that enable's their heroes to not always be accountable for their actions.

 

[L Buff]

I feel for the local economy and for the members of the community who were not a part of this but they are also a part of the culture that allowed this to happen and that can allow or not allow it to happen again. They are the ones who let Saint JoePa have the final word on anything and everything associated with the program ...

Don't take this the wrong way, Mtn (although it may be hard not to) ... but you sound an awful lot like Mary Keenan and Baine Kerr talking about CU football when you make statements like that. And replace "Saint JoePa" with "Coach Barnett" and you have the allegations that were made against us back then.

I'm not minimizing the horror and utter depravity of what happened in State College ... but assuming that everone associated in any way with PSU was "part of the culture" or were rioting when JoPa was fired is painting with far too broad a brush IMHO, and exactly what we objected to several years ago.

 

[J.R. Ewing]

Don't take this the wrong way, Mtn (although it may be hard not to) ... but you sound an awful lot like Mary Keenan and Baine Kerr talking about CU football when you make statements like that. And replace "Saint JoePa" with "Coach Barnett" and you have the allegations that were made against us back then.

I'm not minimizing the horror and utter depravity of what happened in College Station ... but assuming that everone associated in any way with PSU was "part of the culture" or were rioting when JoPa was fired is painting with far too broad a brush IMHO, and exactly what we objected to several years ago.

Damn Aggies deserve the death penalty too....

 

[L Buff]

Damn Aggies deserve the death penalty too....

Ooops! :doh:


Fixed, thank you. I often mix up those two.


But you're right ... the Ags do deserve the death penalty ... just on general principles.

 

[MtnBuff]

Isn't that a very broad brush to be using. By that logic every football fan in America is probably part of the culture that enable's their heroes to not always be accountable for their actions.

I'm absolutely not putting the blame on every fan of Penn State or even a significant minority. At the same time it got to a point where Paterno could make a decision like this unquestioned because he had the consent of more than just a couple of administrators. Look at the response a few years back when they even mentioned the idea that it might be getting time for him to step down when the program had a couple of down years and they had a QB that Paterno stood by despite some questionable actions and comments. That situation was nothing like this one but was representative of the free reign that Paterno had at Penn State by popular aclaim. No administrator was going to risk his/her job challenging Paterno, no politician was going to endanger an election by questioning Paterno.

I truly do feel for those PSU fans who had no idea that this was happening, huge numbers of whom I believe would be shocked and take action if they did. Unfortunately this isn't about a bunch of fans or a bunch of football players anymore. They will live their lives and be fine if the Nittany Lions don't play some football games.

What this is all about is having the courage to make sure that this kind of thing never happens again at Penn State or just as importantly anywhere else. If Penn State is allowed to continue to play football without interuption, even with a bunch of B.S. "Sanctions" put on them the message that balancing reporting something and knowing there will be some backlash against not reporting and risking a bigger backlash, the not reporting isn't bad enough to overcome the risk. The message has to be loud and clear that the lives of the innocent are more important than an athletic program.

The CU situation was blown up into something it wasn't, so was Duke until someone had the courage to stand up to the false accuser. In this case we had little boys, already at risk due to bad family situations getting raped and Paterno decided not to allow it to go to the authorities because it would bring bad publicity to his program. What is worse is that a football coach had the authority make that call and the administration and many of the fans were okay with the situation, never dreaming it would turn into this.

The message has to be in every situation, every time, that crimes against the innocent cannot be hidden for the sake of an athletic program or any other little kingdom. If you don't report because your morals tell you to you report because the cost of not reporting is simply to high. The only thing that will get this message through to those in charge of college athletics is to shut the program down for a time, nothing short of this will do the job.

 

[J.R. Ewing]

For the record, I believe PSU deserves the death penalty. I also believe that SMU did too. Covering up the murder of the 5 hookers was inexcusable.