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The Best Players

Yes. Sometimes sitting on the bench is the best thing for players. Sometimes throwing them into the fire does more harm then good.

Totally agree with Chilly. It's like with Cody. Every report is that he's a great practice player, knows everyone's assignments, works hard in the weight room, eats right, is a good leader in intramural basketball, helps downed cyclists, heads an Accountability Group, gets good grades, is willing to help out the other QBs, etc. If only we'd never thrown him into the fire of an actual game he'd be a very valuable member of this team.

Or did you mean something else? :confused:



:wink2:
 
OK. So can you honestly say you saw improvement in Hansen last year. If all it took was game time, why didn't he improve over the course of the 4 games he started?

The only TD Hansen threw for was in his first game. He was 4 of 12 with 1 int before we finally put Cody back in to start.

.
 
Yes. Sometimes sitting on the bench is the best thing for players. Sometimes throwing them into the fire does more harm then good.

You are right Cody has been in the fire for 2 1/4 years and is getting worse every year. Maybe someone else will rise to the occasion and actually thrive under pressure.
 
OK. So can you honestly say you saw improvement in Hansen last year. If all it took was game time, why didn't he improve over the course of the 4 games he started?

The only TD Hansen threw for was in his first game. He was 4 of 12 with 1 int before we finally put Cody back in to start.

.

If the coaches would have stuck with Hansen maybe we would not be in the same situation again this year. Only by changing that position will the Buffs have a chance to improve. We know what Cody has to offer and unfortunately it is not enough. Most players improve every additional year they start.
 
OK. So can you honestly say you saw improvement in Hansen last year. If all it took was game time, why didn't he improve over the course of the 4 games he started?

The only TD Hansen threw for was in his first game. He was 4 of 12 with 1 int before we finally put Cody back in to start.

.

I saw defenses get the picture that when Hansen was out there the play selection was blatantly obvious. In 4 games he threw 12 passes, it's just unfair to expect much out of the guy under the circumstances.

BTW good thread, we can actually discuss particular things this way! Though, I see it turning into another coaches fault or no talent or Cody or Tyler.
 
That's the thing, Chilly. If it was a choice between "make a minor bowl with Cody" or "lose most of your game with Tyler as he develops", it would be a tough choice. But it's not. The choice is "lose with Cody" or "maybe win more with Tyler but at least develop him for next year".

As Buffs fans, Juicebox has literally told us that Cody is the starter this year and next and that Tyler is redshirting to gain class separation... and that we're supposed to accept this because what he has "subjectively" seen outweighs the "objective" stats we can all point to. Are you really willing to accept this?
 
That's the thing, Chilly. If it was a choice between "make a minor bowl with Cody" or "lose most of your game with Tyler as he develops", it would be a tough choice. But it's not. The choice is "lose with Cody" or "maybe win more with Tyler but at least develop him for next year".

As Buffs fans, Juicebox has literally told us that Cody is the starter this year and next and that Tyler is redshirting to gain class separation... and that we're supposed to accept this because what he has "subjectively" seen outweighs the "objective" stats we can all point to. Are you really willing to accept this?

Yes. Here is my thought on Hansen. We ****ed up by pulling his RS last year. It was the wrong thing to do. The staff got desperate and screwed up. Let's not make the same mistake twice. We need the seperation between the two, and I think it is also possible for Hansen to improve between now and then without getting game time experience. Many players at his position have had to wait there time, and been very solid QB's once they got on the field.

If I could go back in time, I would have kept Hansen RS last year but we can't do that. If the consensus is that this year is a wasted year already, then I would much rather wait until next year for Hansen to take over at the start of the season when he has a chance to lead the team from the start. No sense in burning is RS again just so we can miss a bowl game.
 
OK. So can you honestly say you saw improvement in Hansen last year. If all it took was game time, why didn't he improve over the course of the 4 games he started?

The only TD Hansen threw for was in his first game. He was 4 of 12 with 1 int before we finally put Cody back in to start.

.

So, hansen gets 2 games ? Why hasn't cody improved in 3 years? Hansen did not start 4 games.
 
Yes. Here is my thought on Hansen. We ****ed up by pulling his RS last year. It was the wrong thing to do. The staff got desperate and screwed up. Let's not make the same mistake twice. We need the seperation between the two, and I think it is also possible for Hansen to improve between now and then without getting game time experience. Many players at his position have had to wait there time, and been very solid QB's once they got on the field.

If I could go back in time, I would have kept Hansen RS last year but we can't do that. If the consensus is that this year is a wasted year already, then I would much rather wait until next year for Hansen to take over at the start of the season when he has a chance to lead the team from the start. No sense in burning is RS again just so we can miss a bowl game.

I couldn't be more on the opposite side of this argument. It is because this season is wasted that it is the perfect time to put Hansen in. I'd rather have him learning the tough lessons this year with no bowl game at stake than next year with the season on the line. The more PT he gets now the better he will be next year. If we wait we may have to suffer through another year of QB learning before the O starts to perform. I love Cody's heart but it's time for him to settle into the role he is best suited for, tutor for the other QBs and occasion back up player.
 
I couldn't be more on the opposite side of this argument. It is because this season is wasted that it is the perfect time to put Hansen in. I'd rather have him learning the tough lessons this year with no bowl game at stake than next year with the season on the line. The more PT he gets now the better he will be next year. If we wait we may have to suffer through another year of QB learning before the O starts to perform. I love Cody's heart but it's time for him to settle into the role he is best suited for, tutor for the other QBs and occasion back up player.


:yeahthat:

The "need more space between Cody and Tyler" argument really only works if you presume that Cody is automatically the starter the next two seasons.

If Hansen is going to be the starter next season, it might be more important to put more distance between him and his successor (Evans/Hirschman/???)...
 
So, hansen gets 2 games ? Why hasn't cody improved in 3 years? Hansen did not start 4 games.
I admit I have a bad memory but I recall hansen getting significant playing time in the following games. Not just mop up duty.

Starting maybe relative because I know he was splitting time with Cody during some of these games. But in all 4 of these games he saw more or equal time with Cody

KSU
Missouri
A&M
ISU
 
:yeahthat:

The "need more space between Cody and Tyler" argument really only works if you presume that Cody is automatically the starter the next two seasons.

If Hansen is going to be the starter next season, it might be more important to put more distance between him and his successor (Evans/Hirschman/???)...

Exactly. Seems weird that we need 2 years between Cody and Tyler, but only 1 year between Tyler and Clark. I'll probably want to take this back tomorrow, but damn it, I'm sick of every stupid personnel decision seeming to result in making sure Cody and his friends (Espy, Aric, etc.) get tons of playing time no matter how badly they suck.
 
:yeahthat:

The "need more space between Cody and Tyler" argument really only works if you presume that Cody is automatically the starter the next two seasons.

If Hansen is going to be the starter next season, it might be more important to put more distance between him and his successor (Evans/Hirschman/???)...

Point taken. But lets say he does play this year. Then we only have him for 2 more years as a starter. Where as if he redshirts we get to see him for 3 years behind center. Which maybe the bigger point rather than the separation one.
 
Point taken. But lets say he does play this year. Then we only have him for 2 more years as a starter. Where as if he redshirts we get to see him for 3 years behind center. Which maybe the bigger point rather than the separation one.

The point that is bigger than either is under which scenario will be best off starting this week and for 2010-2013....

Hawkins, Hawkins, Hansen, Hansen, Next Guy

or

Hawkins, Hansen, Hansen, Hansen, Next Guy

or

Hansen, Hansen, Hansen, Next Guy, Next Guy


Of course, there is no answering that question for sure, and really no way of even guessing for the next 5 years. But right now I'd be willing to gamble on the next guy giving us better QB play than we have been seeing so far this season...

Which assumes, obviously, that Hansen is in any way an option this year. If he is truly committed to the idea of a RS season (5 scholarship seasons to get a degree, maybe?), the last scenario is probably out of the question...
 
Exactly. Seems weird that we need 2 years between Cody and Tyler, but only 1 year between Tyler and Clark. I'll probably want to take this back tomorrow, but damn it, I'm sick of every stupid personnel decision seeming to result in making sure Cody and his friends (Espy, Aric, etc.) get tons of playing time no matter how badly they suck.

As soon as we go down this path the thread become another useless conversation.

The whole point of this exercise was to show that this has nothing to do with Cody and "his friends" getting special treatment.

We can debate about which players give us the best shot to win, but when it devolves into a Cody and friends complaint, it is no longer a debate just a rant.

There are good arguments on both sides as to why Cody should or should not start. Same with some of the other positions. You don't have to necessarily agree with the other side, but we should at least be willing to admit that there is some validity to it.

If we had a proven All American sitting behind Cody then I yes things would be that cut and dry. But we don't. What we have is a kid with some gifted physical ability who may or may not be ready to start.
 
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But, you're assuming TH would then start next year. I just can't see Cody hitting the bench after being a 3 year starter. Maybe he does though, so we get Tyler for 3 years as opposed to 2 and a half if he were to start playing this Saturday and not get benched for Cody. I suppose at that point we have to ask ourselves, do we want Tyler to get his game lumps in this season or next season? I'd rather he play this year so he's ready to make a run next year, not stumble out of the block against Hawaii and CSU.
 
Exactly. Seems weird that we need 2 years between Cody and Tyler, but only 1 year between Tyler and Clark. I'll probably want to take this back tomorrow, but damn it, I'm sick of every stupid personnel decision seeming to result in making sure Cody and his friends (Espy, Aric, etc.) get tons of playing time no matter how badly they suck.

As soon as we go down this path the thread become another useless conversation.

The whole point of this exercise was to show that this has nothing to do with Cody and "his friends" getting special treatment.

We can debate about which players give us the best shot to win, but when it devolves into a Cody and friends complaint, it is no longer a debate just a rant.

There are good arguments on both sides as to why Cody should or should not start. Same with some of the other positions. You don't have to necessarily agree with other side, but we should at least be willing to admit that there is some validity to it.

If we had a proven All American sitting behind Cody then I yes thing would be that cut and dry. But we don't. What we have is a kid with some gifted physical ability who may or may not be ready to start.

I think the problem with the "Cody and his friends" argument is that I doubt many of us are really in a position to know who Cody's "friends" on the team really are. It seems to me that a lot of times players people don't think should be in the lineup become "Cody's friends", and the complaint creates itself.

Not to say that's always the case, but it seems strange to me that I never see players discussed as Cody's friends who never see the field (or are unquestionably earning everything they get) nor do I usually see marginal players not mentioned when "Cody's friends" get brought up... :huh:
 
But, you're assuming TH would then start next year. I just can't see Cody hitting the bench after being a 3 year starter. Maybe he does though, so we get Tyler for 3 years as opposed to 2 and a half if he were to start playing this Saturday and not get benched for Cody. I suppose at that point we have to ask ourselves, do we want Tyler to get his game lumps in this season or next season? I'd rather he play this year so he's ready to make a run next year, not stumble out of the block against Hawaii and CSU.

Yes I am. I think Hansen will clearly overtake Cody next year. I think the RS year will do him good. I don't think the issues with Hansen are physical. I think it just the natural learning process. With the promise we have with the young WR we recruited last year. I want to see Hansen throwing to those guys for 3 years. I see alot of potential there. I would rather see him throwing to Usery and Darden, both big receivers for three years over watching him throw to our current group for 1/2 and those guys for only 2.
 
Well I like your outlook, that future certainly doesn't upset me. I just don't see Cody as a 5th year senior finding the bench. I hope you're right, though. Thinking of it that way, whoever the QB is next year will certainly have some weapons. Scotty is only a junior right? Simmons, Clemons, Jefferson, Wright, Ussery and Darden. Not a bad group of potential WRs.
 
Exactly. Seems weird that we need 2 years between Cody and Tyler, but only 1 year between Tyler and Clark. I'll probably want to take this back tomorrow, but damn it, I'm sick of every stupid personnel decision seeming to result in making sure Cody and his friends (Espy, Aric, etc.) get tons of playing time no matter how badly they suck.

Please don't attack the players.
 
Yes I am. I think Hansen will clearly overtake Cody next year. I think the RS year will do him good. I don't think the issues with Hansen are physical. I think it just the natural learning process. With the promise we have with the young WR we recruited last year. I want to see Hansen throwing to those guys for 3 years. I see alot of potential there. I would rather see him throwing to Usery and Darden, both big receivers for three years over watching him throw to our current group for 1/2 and those guys for only 2.

How exactly does riding the pine improve your skill against a QB with a year of eligability?

The reason Simmons and Simas see little action is because they are most dangerouse down field and Cody is not acurate throwing the deep ball.
 
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Cody will be the starter next year. Book it. It's going to be a long, long off season and 2010.


I don't buy it. He almost lost the gig this year. Don't forget according to some posters Hansen was suppose to start the WV game.
 
As soon as we go down this path the thread become another useless conversation.

The whole point of this exercise was to show that this has nothing to do with Cody and "his friends" getting special treatment.

We can debate about which players give us the best shot to win, but when it devolves into a Cody and friends complaint, it is no longer a debate just a rant.

There are good arguments on both sides as to why Cody should or should not start. Same with some of the other positions. You don't have to necessarily agree with the other side, but we should at least be willing to admit that there is some validity to it.

If we had a proven All American sitting behind Cody then I yes things would be that cut and dry. But we don't. What we have is a kid with some gifted physical ability who may or may not be ready to start.

I was wrong. I'm regretting it tonight. :smile2:

But there is no good argument for Cody as our QB.

Does anyone here think that Bernard Jackson was a good QB for us?

His QB rating in 2006 was 103.26

Cody's QB rating this year: 104.30

They are exactly the same as passers. B-Jax, however, gave us over 600 yards rushing that year. Cody's at -84 so far this year.

Edit: I'm sorry for posting this stupid "objective" stuff again. Forget the statistics or the won/loss record. What truly matters is the "subjective" stuff.
 
I don't buy it. He almost lost the gig this year. Don't forget according to some posters Hansen was suppose to start the WV game.

According to some posters? I'll believe it when I see it. I'm not saying Hawk is favoring his son to the detriment of the team. I'm saying Cody is the best QB on the team and he will be the starter next year. Is this an incredibly sad commentary about the state of the team? I'll leave it to others to decide.
 
I was wrong. I'm regretting it tonight. :smile2:

But there is no good argument for Cody as our QB.

Does anyone here think that Bernard Jackson was a good QB for us?

His QB rating in 2006 was 103.26

Cody's QB rating this year: 104.30

They are exactly the same as passers. B-Jax, however, gave us over 600 yards rushing that year. Cody's at -84 so far this year.

I don't think my argument centers around saying Cody is a good QB. He has clearly struggled this year. But it is not clear to me that Hansen is the answer THIS year. There is more to our issues than just QB play. The good argument for me is that with the young WR we brought in this year, I would much rather watch a Hansen throwing to them for 3 years then just 2.

It's funny you bring up B-Jax because I think he is a perfect example of why Hansen might NOT be the answer. He was as mobile a QB as we have had at CU in a while, and yet it did us no good. If B-jax feet couldn't produce any wins for us what makes us think TH's will?
 
OL: Hard to say who's better between Adkins/Bahr/Stevens/etc. I can't fault them for playing who they play here.
TE: Like others have said I wish Deehan would get a few more chances, but Devenny and Geer aren't worse players or anything.
CB: No argument here.
S: It's hard to argue that Polk isn't 15x the athlete Mahnke is. I know Polk was out of position a few times when he has played, but my god Mahnke looks slower than Cody out there so far.
LB: I will give Cabral the benefit of the doubt. I would like to see Smart out in obvious passing situations more, his speed is a real handicap.
DL: Yikes. All I will say here is Kasa had better be playing quite a bit now that they've burned his redshirt. I also must wonder where Obi is. The coaches have even pegged him as a strong practice player before, why has this not resulted in playing time?
RB: I know most on here think the world of Stewart, but I think he is what he is. A smaller RB who can't handle the load of 20+ carries. He'll get beaten to death if they try to do that to him every game. I won't argue that DS is the better player, but I will argue that DS is clearly a better player than Sumler.
WR: This is frankly the biggest joke on the team. Nobody to blame but Hawk for this too. If the offense is so absurdly complex then they need to dumb it down. No need to be running the Bill Walsh west coast offense at 100% when the result is Ebner and Espy getting PT over the rest of the MUCH more talented players.
QB: I don't know if TH is the better QB. It's hard to argue talent at QB should always win out, there's so much that goes into being a QB. That being said, nobody can tell me, and that includes DH, that TH isn't a better QB than Cody until we can see him play some games.

1. Oline- I dont think we have anyone better on the bench but, I thought we were gonna come out and run block not bitch block.

2. TE- Been ok could be better but what couldnt be better at this point?

3. CB- Umm still think these guys look lost, beilieve they are thinking too damn much, play the football fellas. what the hell happened to stevie hicks who is supposed to run a 4.3?

4. LB- well I think we should put our speed on the field bottom line, we've lost 3 games anyway.

5. DL- um not much, like West and Bosnu, also like Cunningham but not much else.

6. RB- Well think DS is gotta be involved, 3 carries wont do it. Really dont know what else to say.

7. WR- Well Scotty has produced so Ill give him his props, he deserves it. As far as the rest and the position, well, leaves alot to be desired. Next year will be better i think but who will we be next year? also will hawk be here?

8. QB- Well umm Einstein said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Does that fit this situation or what?

9. Punt Return- Lets just say this has to be a part of a weak offense and Espy is a joke back there. i know the guy probably busts his ass but there is no way he should be returning punts in the Big 12. I could say something else but I wont, thats how pitiful this has become.
 
Regardless of what we have sitting on the bench at the QB position, virtually every other cfb coach would have tried something else at this point. We have yet to have another QB take even a single snap.

Sometimes, practice performance is not indicative of game performance. Some guys light it up in practice, as I hear Cody does, and struggle in games. Some guys step up big time in game situations and make their name on the field. Basically, at this point, you at least try something else. Anything else.

The personnel issues at WR are extensive and extensively documented. I refuse to believe that Espinoza is a better option than Simas or Simmons, period. If the playbook really is that complicated, perhaps it is time to run some go routes or simplify it a little bit. Both of these players have 2 years of participating in college football under their belts. There is no way they would be less effective than Espinoza. McKnight is definitely making a very solid contribution, but frankly, I think in a lot of programs he would play a smaller role as a #3 guy or change of pace guy rather than an every down, #1 receiver type of player.

WR is perhaps the position in football where players are most successful being "plugged in" and given the opportunity to learn on the fly. Look at how many young WR's have been the best in the conference, and the nation, the past few years. The Big 12 and the SEC, for example, have been dominated completely the last few years by young wide receivers - AJ Green, Julio Jones, Dez Bryant, Crabtree, Maclin come to mind. I am not saying that we have these kind of guys on our roster, but we have some talented players.

Jeremy Maclin, for example, was never a super-polished WR. He ran primarily go routes or little screens that were designed specifically to get him the ball and let him show off his speed. This guy was never really utilized as a part of any super-complicated play. At the bare minimum, him being on the field demanded the attention of the other teams best corner, even when Missouri didn't really plan on throwing to him. Teams have to respect speed and they have to respect the threat of the big play or they will get burned. At CU, neither of those things are a concern and as a result we have teams stacking the box and dropping back into coverage schemes where they might give up a few yards on any given play, but almost never more than 5-7 yards.

RB - Stewart has earned his touches but there is no reason why him and Darrell can't touch the ball at least 15+ times a game each. I believe that the reason Scott doesn't play much has little to do with his ability and a lot to do with some kind of problem that Hawkins has with him. Even Hagan has suggested to the press that he anticipated DS to be much more involved in this offense than he has been. There is no reason, ever, for Sumler to get more touches than DS. DS has simply not been given any opportunity to shine here at CU.

OL - Not much to say here, outside of my curiosity regarding the decision to play Miller at guard.

LB - Why does Beatty play such number of snaps? I would assume the reason to be that he is something of a liability in coverage or he would play more, but with 7 guys up front, there has to be room for a pass rush guy on more than a few plays a game. Why doesn't Mohler play way more? Why don't Major and Rippy play way more? This was supposed to be a huge strength of the team and the unit, as a whole, has been pretty mediocre.

DL - No comment here, I will defer to those more knowledgeable on this subject. I will say, though, if you are going to burn Kasa's RS, he should get some legitimate playing time.

Secondary - Guys are just underperforming here, I think, but I would like to see a little less of Mahnke and probably Polk until they are more ready to play safety at this level.

PR/KR - Just say no to one of the slowest players on your team returning punts. Catching the ball needs to be a given and an expectation, not a superlative that qualifies you to handle the duties exclusively when you lack significant speed or the ability to make people miss. I find it impossible to believe that our more athletic players have such an inability to field a punt that we need to be using the player we are at this position. At some point, you have some minimum expectations of your playmakers, you have faith in them, and you put them on the field.
 
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I don't think my argument centers around saying Cody is a good QB. He has clearly struggled this year. But it is not clear to me that Hansen is the answer THIS year. There is more to our issues than just QB play. The good argument for me is that with the young WR we brought in this year, I would much rather watch a Hansen throwing to them for 3 years then just 2.

It's funny you bring up B-Jax because I think he is a perfect example of why Hansen might NOT be the answer. He was as mobile a QB as we have had at CU in a while, and yet it did us no good. If B-jax feet couldn't produce any wins for us what makes us think TH's will?

First of all, B-Jax should have never seen the field at QB and wouldn't have if Hawk hadn't run off Brian White. :wink2: But, anyway...

B-Jax played for 1 year. Hansen would get to start for 8 games this year and then have the opportunity for 2 more years. You need to find out what you've got in this guy.

Is Tyler a bigger, taller, faster QB with a stronger arm and better mobility than Cody? Absolutely. I don't think even Cody would argue that. Potential exists with Hansen because he has all the physical tools. Coaches say he knows the offense. All that's missing is game experience. If he gets it over the next 8 games and doesn't win games and doesn't get better as the season goes along, then we know he's a bust. We need to know that, because we can't win with Cody next year and we need to know if we can win with Hansen. Because if we can't, we need to go full steam after a top JUCO QB to carry us the next couple years until Clark, Lobato, Spond, Hirschman or someone else is ready to lead this team.
 
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