Deleted member 807
Guest
I see your point. After all, CU did not lose a bowl game, which is more than can be said for half the teams playing this week. CU #1!
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University of Utah = National Champion!
- Thread starter Timbuff10
- Start date
I see your point. After all, CU did not lose a bowl game, which is more than can be said for half the teams playing this week. CU #1!
:yeahthat:
If you play in the MWC or Conference USA, then you have ground to make up and you have to do so by playing a very tough OOC schedule. And for teams in conferences such as the MAC or WAC, it's even tougher yet. That's pretty much the way it works for teams in non-BCS conferences, and Utah's OOC schedule simply wasn't tough enough.
Not that this changes anything, but Oregon is #15, not #25.
Oops - Thanks for pointing that out. I miskeyed that ****er, and I did run the calcs off what I wrote previous.
USC's average flips to 13.75. So slightly stronger... but not strong enough to warrant them receiving a higher ranking with 1 loss.
thats true but in the real world what are the chances that the teams from those mentioned conf's get a bcs school to do a home and home? if the ncaa wants parity (and they only do on the face of things, they want money much more) and they are not willing to have a playoff, I think there should be 2 games a year mandated by the ncaa. set up a home and an away game each year between bcs schools and the non bcs confs. let a Utah or Boise or kent state play a bcs school at home one game and on the road one game per year.
Timbuff10
Member
Yeah but all the other teams lost at least one game where Utah is undefeated. If Utah had one loss, then yeah, schedule would seperate the two but a loss is a loss.
So to sum up the argument, Utah can say UNDEFEATED!
Timbuff10
Member
I am also wondering this... If these schools like Utah ad Boise St aren't allowed to win a Championship why even let them into the BCS bowl games? What is the point, they have already proven that they can win all their games and beat several traditional powers in doing so.
That is about like telling the Giants last year after they eeked one out against the Pats that it was a good try but we still declared the Patriots the Super Bowl champs... Good job though.
That is about like telling the Giants last year after they eeked one out against the Pats that it was a good try but we still declared the Patriots the Super Bowl champs... Good job though.
Good f'in point, man. I don't know why I hadn't thought of that.
Whole different system. Apples and oranges. The NFL is based on a playoff, who plays well enough to get into the playoffs then who gets hot. Blow a couple of games early in the season, who cares. All that matters is the ones at the end.
You ask a good question. How does a team from a weaker confrence get a shot at the title? It is going to be hard but they have to prove that they deserve to go. Play an OCC that makes people pay attention, then dominate your league.
Utah went undefeated but they clearly had breathers spaced into the entire season giving them time to prepare for their big games. No doubt that Florida, Texas, OU, Alabama would have loved to have some gimme games throughout the season. Instead they got into league play and had to play teams that even while on the bottom of their leagues are more talented and physically demanding to play than even the mid-level teams in the mid-majors.
If the question is who deserves to feel good, Utah wins. If the question is who over the course of the year played week in and week out the toughest schedule and survived it best then Utah gets a ribbon for a nice try but no trophy.
This is not elementary school where we try to help everybody feel good about themselves, this is bigboy football and comparing what Utah did this year does not compare to the teams in the national championship game. If you want a winner based on who gets hot at the end watch the pros. If you want a winner based on who had the best season overall, Utah doesn't make it.
You ask a good question. How does a team from a weaker confrence get a shot at the title? It is going to be hard but they have to prove that they deserve to go. Play an OCC that makes people pay attention, then dominate your league.
Utah went undefeated but they clearly had breathers spaced into the entire season giving them time to prepare for their big games. No doubt that Florida, Texas, OU, Alabama would have loved to have some gimme games throughout the season. Instead they got into league play and had to play teams that even while on the bottom of their leagues are more talented and physically demanding to play than even the mid-level teams in the mid-majors.
If the question is who deserves to feel good, Utah wins. If the question is who over the course of the year played week in and week out the toughest schedule and survived it best then Utah gets a ribbon for a nice try but no trophy.
This is not elementary school where we try to help everybody feel good about themselves, this is bigboy football and comparing what Utah did this year does not compare to the teams in the national championship game. If you want a winner based on who gets hot at the end watch the pros. If you want a winner based on who had the best season overall, Utah doesn't make it.
The thing that annoys me about this situation is that everybody is calling this a huge upset. WTF? Utah was ranked 8, and Alabama 5. Since when is a win over a team ranked three places ahead of you considered a huge upset?
I knew Bama would not take Utah seriously. It's the whole "SEC" thing. They don't think anybody outside of the SEC knows how to play football. Certainly not some fly-by-night group of mormon hicks from Utah. They thought Utah would lie down and bow to their greatness. You could see it in their reactions to the game. They were completely shocked that they didn't just walk away with the game.
Good for Utah.
I knew Bama would not take Utah seriously. It's the whole "SEC" thing. They don't think anybody outside of the SEC knows how to play football. Certainly not some fly-by-night group of mormon hicks from Utah. They thought Utah would lie down and bow to their greatness. You could see it in their reactions to the game. They were completely shocked that they didn't just walk away with the game.
Good for Utah.
They beat the Oregon State team that beat USC.
KDBuff
Well-Known Member
I think I'll stay out of the bigger argument, but the chain rule doesn't work in sports. Penn St beat Oregon State too (by a bunch), how did that work out for them against SC?
I'll agree it doesn't always work. But when the argument is "Utah didn't play anybody", I think it's meaningful that they did play and beat the team that beat USC.
If Utah didn't play anybody worthwhile, then USC lost to a team that is not worthwhile. Seems like that should count them out of the title chase right there....
Timbuff10
Member
Undefeated.
The problem with scheduling is that any time that Utah wants to put Texas on the schedule, Texas is going to require 2 games in Austin for one game in Utah. Look at Wyoming scheduling nebrasska. I think they had to play two or three in stincoln to get one home game in Wyoming. Schools like Utah can't afford to schedule like that very often. Didn't we get screwed by FSU like that? Two at FSU for one here?
I really hope there is a backlash against the paper champion this year, so much to the point where the NCAA has to install a expansive playoff system.
With any luck, the people and hopefully the AP, will call Utah the champion while they NCAA keeps having to point at Oklahoma or Florida without many people listening.
Utah was a 9 point dog.
Unleash Hell
Well-Known Member
Did you know that CU and Utah used to be rivals when they played in the same confrence?
Anyway another good point and question I have is.
Utah has just finished a season undefeated by capping it with a BCS bowl win for the second time in four years. Has any other team in the country finished the season undefeated by winning a bcs bowl twice since the formation of the bcs? I think the Utes are the only ones to do it twice if I'm not mistaken. The Utes should be rewarded for it!
Anyway another good point and question I have is.
Utah has just finished a season undefeated by capping it with a BCS bowl win for the second time in four years. Has any other team in the country finished the season undefeated by winning a bcs bowl twice since the formation of the bcs? I think the Utes are the only ones to do it twice if I'm not mistaken. The Utes should be rewarded for it!
You can call them champs all you want, I am sure that a lot of people in SLC will agree with you. Fortunately there will be enough other people out there including those who are asked to make the decision who will decide that looking at the whole body of work, Utah does not deserve to be the Champ.
Utah does have some impressive wins, they also have a schedule that includes a whole bunch of breathers to be generous. You can argue that they played the schedule that was in front of them but they made that schedule. College football is not just a game it is a business. If Utah wants to play with the big boys they have to pay with the big boys. Put enough money on the table and you can get the schedule you want. Be a bunch of whining brats and act like you are something special after beating Utah State, Weber State, and a batch of MWC teams, some of which are pretty good and some of which are, well, like a bye week for a good team. I know that they played Oregon State which is a good, not great team and when they scheduled Michigan they had reason to believe that they would be at least a top 25 team but the simple fact is that their schedule does not deserve being called national champs.
Again I am sure that their supporters won't agree but quite frankly the rest of the country won't give a crap in six months. The real champion will be a team who faced a real schedule with multiple consecutive weeks of quality opponents and came through, not a team that basically played a five game schedule over a four month period and then yells look at me.
Utah does have some impressive wins, they also have a schedule that includes a whole bunch of breathers to be generous. You can argue that they played the schedule that was in front of them but they made that schedule. College football is not just a game it is a business. If Utah wants to play with the big boys they have to pay with the big boys. Put enough money on the table and you can get the schedule you want. Be a bunch of whining brats and act like you are something special after beating Utah State, Weber State, and a batch of MWC teams, some of which are pretty good and some of which are, well, like a bye week for a good team. I know that they played Oregon State which is a good, not great team and when they scheduled Michigan they had reason to believe that they would be at least a top 25 team but the simple fact is that their schedule does not deserve being called national champs.
Again I am sure that their supporters won't agree but quite frankly the rest of the country won't give a crap in six months. The real champion will be a team who faced a real schedule with multiple consecutive weeks of quality opponents and came through, not a team that basically played a five game schedule over a four month period and then yells look at me.
The Guest
Guest
And if Penn State had beaten Iowa and then played in a BCS National Championship game and won?
Penn State's schedule was less daunting than Utah's, but given the above circumstance, they would have been crowned national champs and very few would have batted an eye-lash.
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HuskerHater
Well-Known Member
I don't know what Iowa State has to do with this? Hell we beat Iowa State. If every team that beat Iowa State was allowed to play in the national championship game we would have one giant playoff with 8 Big 12 teams, Iowa, and a couple of MAC teams.:smile2:
The Guest
Guest
HuskerHater
Well-Known Member
No problem.:smile2:
I think Utah should get serious consideration for AP champion. Do I think they would win an 8 team playoff if Division I had one. No, because USC would win that. Every year. Just watch any pregame or halftime shows the last 3 or 4 years. Well if USC is that damn good every year, win your conference games. Utah did and the MWC is stronger than the PAC-10 right now. Hawaii in a BCS game last year was a joke, just look at their nonconference games. But Boise State and Utah, as well as teams like TCU and Fresno State who have never quite made it to a BCS game, deserve more consideration because they go out and try to play the big boys year in and year out.
I think a 16-team playoff is the only solution. First, in order to change the system the BCS commission has to vote on the new format (unanimously, I believe) and the commission is made of a member from each BCS conference--no one would vote for a playoff unless their conference were assured a playoff spot--that's 6 teams right there, then how about an undefeated mid-major team, like a Utah--you have to throw them in there. You would also have to have a Notre Dame clause considering they aren't in a conference--and no, ND will never join a conference. That's 8 teams right there. What happens if the Big 10 has co-champions? Or what if you had a situation like this year--is it fair that Cincinnati gets a berth over both Texas and Tech? In a 16-team field you can include all the conference champs, ND, multiple mid-majors, and multiple teams from the stronger conferences--all for what--1 extra week over the 8-team playoff format? Networks wouldn't line up to showcase that--I guess it's a dumb idea though, because there is no way a Utah could beat an Alabama so why even settle it on the field, the most logical place.
Edit: And no, I'm not just throwing ND in there--they obviously would have to be worthy of a spot.
This year shows us why the BCS is no better than what we had before, and why it should simply be scrapped.
A plus 1 doesn't work (who gets in -- USC, Utah, Texas if they win?)
All 11 conference champions would need to be eligible for a playoff to fairly work, which is why a 16 team playoff would be needed as stated above.
Four extra games would kill our current bowl structure, though would solve the issue of true national champion.
I don't like what it would do to the current Bowls, so I'd vote to scrap the BCS and go back to the way it was. Sure there is controversy, but no more so than the current BCS... I'd also like to see the Bowl games end January 1 or shortly thereafter. Going into the second week of January is stupid IMO...
A plus 1 doesn't work (who gets in -- USC, Utah, Texas if they win?)
All 11 conference champions would need to be eligible for a playoff to fairly work, which is why a 16 team playoff would be needed as stated above.
Four extra games would kill our current bowl structure, though would solve the issue of true national champion.
I don't like what it would do to the current Bowls, so I'd vote to scrap the BCS and go back to the way it was. Sure there is controversy, but no more so than the current BCS... I'd also like to see the Bowl games end January 1 or shortly thereafter. Going into the second week of January is stupid IMO...
The comparison of Utah's schedule to Penn State is ridiculous. I don't see any Weber States, Utah States, etc. They did play Coastal Carolina first game but the followed up with a blowout of Oregon State (yes that Oregon State that the Utah proponents are using as a great win) PSU beat them 45-14. The MWC is much better than it has been in the past but if you think that a MWC schedule is comparable to playing a Big X schedule then you are delusional. The Iowa loss proves this, it came on the road to a legitimate 9 win bowl team following a road win against Ohio State.
Had Penn State gone undefeated they would legitimately be in the NC game, they would get their butts kicked by either Florida or OU but they would be there legitimately.
Again this is not to diminish what Utah has done this year, they had a great season and should be recognized for it, but to imagine that they deserve to be called the best team in the country is simply a case of letting emotion rule over logic. They played one great game against an Alabama team that had already lost their motivation to put out a full effort and was missing their best player along with another offensive lineman resulting in a completely makeshift O-line. I absolutely guarantee that Andre Smith been on the field, Utah's Sylvester would not have been flying unblocked to the QB every play. Alabama would have been much more effective both passing and running.
Even with the win over Alabama Utah's accomplishments this season don't justify a NC. Remember that in college FB championships are awarded for a season, not for beating 3-4 good teams and a bunch of walkovers.
Had Penn State gone undefeated they would legitimately be in the NC game, they would get their butts kicked by either Florida or OU but they would be there legitimately.
Again this is not to diminish what Utah has done this year, they had a great season and should be recognized for it, but to imagine that they deserve to be called the best team in the country is simply a case of letting emotion rule over logic. They played one great game against an Alabama team that had already lost their motivation to put out a full effort and was missing their best player along with another offensive lineman resulting in a completely makeshift O-line. I absolutely guarantee that Andre Smith been on the field, Utah's Sylvester would not have been flying unblocked to the QB every play. Alabama would have been much more effective both passing and running.
Even with the win over Alabama Utah's accomplishments this season don't justify a NC. Remember that in college FB championships are awarded for a season, not for beating 3-4 good teams and a bunch of walkovers.
You keep harping on Utah playing Weber State and Utah State. But you have yet to mention Florida playing The Citadel, OU playing Chattanooga and you dismiss Penn State playing Coastal Carolina. You blow off Oregon State as a "good, not great" team, shouldn't losing to a team that lightly regarded blow USC out the argument? Especially when you also mention that Penn State blew them out (but they were the only team of the three to not play them in Corvallis...)
Utah also played a TCU team that beat unbeaten Boise in their bowl game, and a BYU team that was pretty damn good themselves. Overall, the MWC put together a much more impressive bowl season than the Big XI did... You're right that Utah had fewer quality opponents than other teams, but their schedule isn't the constant trail of cupcakes you make it out to be.
Unleash Hell
Well-Known Member
It shouldn't even be an argument. UTAH deserves the national title more than OU, UF, USC or Texas. They had a good schedule. There have been many teams over the years that have won the national title with a far, far, far weaker schedule than Utah did this year. Utah is the national champion, plain and simple!
Junction, do you not understand the letters MWC. Playing a schedule that includes Wyoming, San Diego State, UNLV, New Mexico, Colorado State means that your OOC cannot include Webers and Utah States if you want any credibility. TCU is a good team, good enough to get smashed by OU, BYU is a good team, they got smashed by Arizona in the bowl.
Playing a MWC schedule is not the same as playing SEC or Big XII teams week in and week out. Even the bad teams in those leagues are bigger, stronger, deeper than the mid-level teams in the MWC or the WAC. Again understand I am not saying that Utah is not a good team. Utah deserves a lot of credit for what they have done. It is simply clear however that there is no way in the world that an undefeated Utah team can be considered better than a one loss team from a real conference with a real schedule that had to do it week after week without let-up. Had Ball State gone undefeated would you be calling them national champs, just as credible as Utah is you believe what you are saying.
Playing a MWC schedule is not the same as playing SEC or Big XII teams week in and week out. Even the bad teams in those leagues are bigger, stronger, deeper than the mid-level teams in the MWC or the WAC. Again understand I am not saying that Utah is not a good team. Utah deserves a lot of credit for what they have done. It is simply clear however that there is no way in the world that an undefeated Utah team can be considered better than a one loss team from a real conference with a real schedule that had to do it week after week without let-up. Had Ball State gone undefeated would you be calling them national champs, just as credible as Utah is you believe what you are saying.
HuskerHater
Well-Known Member
You're right it isn't the same as playing an SEC or Big 12 schedule. But it is the same as playing a Big 10 schedule this year.
Unleash Hell
Well-Known Member
I bet Utah would beat Oklahoma
Please don't insult us by another post that just lists the weakest teams on Utah's schedule again. We get that point. :deadhorse:Trust me, we understand the letters MWC just as well as you do. I'm not sure you understand that TCU, BYU and Oregon State were part of that schedule too, that Utah beat all of them, and that other very good teams were unable to do the same. I'm really not sure what makes you think that those wins somehow don't matter simply because Utah played two in-state rivals as part of the OOC schedule. You keep saying it, but repetition doesn't make the point any more meaningful.
I'm not saying Utah is the best team. Frankly, I doubt that they are. I agree with you that they didn't play tough teams week in, week out. But there is more to the schedule issue than you can see or are willing to admit. When they did play those teams, they beat them. They beat Alabama. Nobody else but Florida can say that. They beat Oregon State in Corvallis. USC couldn't. They beat TCU. Boise State couldn't. Those games are much more relevant to this discussion than the fact that they played one game against Weber State. Just because you say a MWC team can't play those kinds of teams does not make it so.