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We now take you to Minneapolis, MN

Let me add that I still believe that if there is reasonable suspicion that the university and the AD should have taken action. There are way to many cases of schools protecting athletes from their actions in order to protect wins.

It does though have to be supported by evidence and someone shouldn't lose their right to due process and an assumption of innocence simply because they are athletes.

The schools and law enforcement have an obligation to take the charges seriously, to investigate professionally and in a timely manner, and to respond based on the evidence. This situation in Minnesota is new to me but it just seems to have been handled poorly thus the player revolt.

To me the way this is being handled does not inspire confidence in the system for either the women or the accused young men.
 
DBT said:
Is anyone just a little appalled at the participant's behavior whether "consensual" or not? I mean, I'd hope my kids would never put themselves in a situation like that to begin with. But then, I guess, this isn't a "morality" issue in the "religious" sense, but rather, in the societal sense because societal morality no longer corresponds to "religious" morality.
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Do you mean "participant's" (as in the woman in this case) or "participants'" (as in the men)?
 
MtnBuff said:
Let me add that I still believe that if there is reasonable suspicion that the university and the AD should have taken action. There are way to many cases of schools protecting athletes from their actions in order to protect wins.

It does though have to be supported by evidence and someone shouldn't lose their right to due process and an assumption of innocence simply because they are athletes.

The schools and law enforcement have an obligation to take the charges seriously, to investigate professionally and in a timely manner, and to respond based on the evidence. This situation in Minnesota is new to me but it just seems to have been handled poorly thus the player revolt.

To me the way this is being handled does not inspire confidence in the system for either the women or the accused young men.
Click to expand...

Nobody lost their right to due process. Players who were suspended or expelled have the opportunity to appeal those decisions and be heard on the matter.
 
DBT said:
Is anyone just a little appalled at the participant's behavior whether "consensual" or not? I mean, I'd hope my kids would never put themselves in a situation like that to begin with. But then, I guess, this isn't a "morality" issue in the "religious" sense, but rather, in the societal sense because societal morality no longer corresponds to "religious" morality.
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Nope. I notice you used the singular of participant here though. That's kind of sad.
 
DBT said:
Man, you guys are observant. I meant everyone's.
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I figured as much. Just wanted to clarify on where you were coming from.

You know, to me, the idea of lining up to be one of multiple people to have sex with someone you don't know is just sort of pathetic, and certainly stupid. Are you so desperate to have sex that you would do it in that environment? I just have a hard time imagining the person who would be down with taking a number.
 
NWD Buff said:
I figured as much. Just wanted to clarify on where you were coming from.

You know, to me, the idea of lining up to be one of multiple people to have sex with someone you don't know is just sort of pathetic, and certainly stupid. Are you so desperate to have sex that you would do it in that environment? I just have a hard time imagining the person who would be down with taking a number.
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This is the weirdest thing to me. Like if that's how you get down, there are some serous questions you have to ask yourself. I don't want to speculate too much on this, but I have a feeling the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Like the victim might have been okay with it until it became a line-up. I'd recommend listening to Bomani Jones' Right Time segment on it. He hits it on the head.
 
Well, Idk what to believe now really. Nik's post got me thinking a bit. That said, sounds like some people bricked on this. Until there is more info, hard to know what went down.
 
BuffLuKe said:
Well, Idk what to believe now really. Nik's post got me thinking a bit. That said, sounds like some people bricked on this. Until there is more info, hard to know what went down.
Click to expand...

I think all of the meaningful info is in the police report, someone linked it on here.

The whole night is a blurry mess for the victim, her statement has gaps in it, but what parts she does recall ring of truth. She's not out to crucify the guys or get revenge, her mom seems to have pushed for it to be reported the further addressed by the PD. She gave some initial consent, got very uncomfortable with the direction things went and was not able to or felt unsafe in making it clear to the players that she was no longer consenting. That's a real headache of something to sort out from a bunch of college aged kids who were drunk.

The guys think that they all had consent from her; it's harder to tease out where they're being forthcoming and where they're trying to be deceptive as the notes are less detailed for their statements. FWIW, Djam seems totally forthcoming and honestly seems to feel that he received consent for everything he did.

One of the players says he shows up because he gets a message about what is going on from a teammate, and the player that got the message goes into the room and engages sexually with the victim; I don't recall if he is the same person, but one of the interview summaries by the police says that a player heard that she was OK with what was going on from another player not from the girl herself. That is troubling to me, it sounds like the guys are calling in buddies to have their turn with her and accepting second hand statements as consent being given.

In my opinion:
  • Should these guys be prosecuted? No.
  • Was consent clearly given for some of the sexual acts? Definitively yes.
  • Was consent clearly given for all the sexual acts? Almost definitely no.
  • Was the girl capable of offering consent to additional individuals who kept arriving? Almost definitely no.
  • Would it be crystal clear that she was not accepting to the guys who arrived later? Most likely no.
  • Does the University have enough evidence to support the likelihood that their code of conduct was breached by players? Yes
  • Is it within the University's rights to punish players even if criminal charges aren't filed? Yes
  • Does the timing of everything suck? Yes
  • Should timing in regards to the football schedule be any significant concern for the University's investigation and recommendation? Not really.
  • Does this situation suck for everyone involved? Yes
  • Because the situation sucks should it be swept under the rug? Absolutely not.
  • Is it the end of the world if 10 guys miss a bowl game? Nope
  • Is it fair if 10 guys miss a game even if they didn't do anything absolutely wrong? Probably not
  • Do I have any sympathy for guys who decide to run a train on a drunk girl, even is she seems ok with it at the time? Nope
  • Should I have sympathy for them? Maybe
Hopefully things calm down a little bit and the team plays their bowl game. Hopefully the guys who got deep into the gray area of what consent really means learn something from this.

Most of all, I hope the victim is not shamed for reporting this. Even if it qualifies as consent given, there are not clear cut answers and we should not send the message that people who feel victimized should be afraid to ask the police to investigate.
 
jkppkjjkp said:
I think all of the meaningful info is in the police report, someone linked it on here.

The whole night is a blurry mess for the victim, her statement has gaps in it, but what parts she does recall ring of truth. She's not out to crucify the guys or get revenge, her mom seems to have pushed for it to be reported the further addressed by the PD. She gave some initial consent, got very uncomfortable with the direction things went and was not able to or felt unsafe in making it clear to the players that she was no longer consenting. That's a real headache of something to sort out from a bunch of college aged kids who were drunk.

The guys think that they all had consent from her; it's harder to tease out where they're being forthcoming and where they're trying to be deceptive as the notes are less detailed for their statements. FWIW, Djam seems totally forthcoming and honestly seems to feel that he received consent for everything he did.

One of the players says he shows up because he gets a message about what is going on from a teammate, and the player that got the message goes into the room and engages sexually with the victim; I don't recall if he is the same person, but one of the interview summaries by the police says that a player heard that she was OK with what was going on from another player not from the girl herself. That is troubling to me, it sounds like the guys are calling in buddies to have their turn with her and accepting second hand statements as consent being given.

In my opinion:
  • Should these guys be prosecuted? No.
  • Was consent clearly given for some of the sexual acts? Definitively yes.
  • Was consent clearly given for all the sexual acts? Almost definitely no.
  • Was the girl capable of offering consent to additional individuals who kept arriving? Almost definitely no.
  • Would it be crystal clear that she was not accepting to the guys who arrived later? Most likely no.
  • Does the University have enough evidence to support the likelihood that their code of conduct was breached by players? Yes
  • Is it within the University's rights to punish players even if criminal charges aren't filed? Yes
  • Does the timing of everything suck? Yes
  • Should timing in regards to the football schedule be any significant concern for the University's investigation and recommendation? Not really.
  • Does this situation suck for everyone involved? Yes
  • Because the situation sucks should it be swept under the rug? Absolutely not.
  • Is it the end of the world if 10 guys miss a bowl game? Nope
  • Is it fair if 10 guys miss a game even if they didn't do anything absolutely wrong? Probably not
  • Do I have any sympathy for guys who decide to run a train on a drunk girl, even is she seems ok with it at the time? Nope
  • Should I have sympathy for them? Maybe
Hopefully things calm down a little bit and the team plays their bowl game. Hopefully the guys who got deep into the gray area of what consent really means learn something from this.

Most of all, I hope the victim is not shamed for reporting this. Even if it qualifies as consent given, there are not clear cut answers and we should not send the message that people who feel victimized should be afraid to ask the police to investigate.
Click to expand...

Great post. The other question, which I think part of this, is that some guys didn't engage in any sexual activity and weren't in the room but are being punished. Maybe it's just that I'm a couple decades removed from college and times have changed, but as I think about this I can imagine a situation where my roommates would have told me there was a girl in one of their rooms who was looking for a gang bang and I could take a turn. I imagine I would have said "No, not my thing. Thanks for asking. Have fun." Would that reaction from me have gotten me suspended since I didn't determine if she was really giving consent and I didn't think I had reason to call a Title IX officer or the police about it?
 
A lot of modern sexual assault prevention education is about intervention, which I'm sure has been taught to them consistently. I can then easily see why if their investigation found the main parties guilty, those who had an opportunity to stop would be held accountable as well.
 
Very slippery slope my friend. If a woman is flat hammered, I would've took the same approach Nik. Been in that situation before and you are better off not doing it. Helps my dad talked with me about that kind of thing a lot, he was a cop at one point.
 
jkppkjjkp said:
I think all of the meaningful info is in the police report, someone linked it on here.


  • Should timing in regards to the football schedule be any significant concern for the University's investigation and recommendation? ABSO-****ING-LUTELY NOT
  • Does this situation suck for everyone involved? Yes
  • Because the situation sucks should it be swept under the rug? Absolutely not.
  • Is it the end of the world if 10 guys miss a bowl game? Nope
  • Is it fair if 10 guys miss a game even if they didn't do anything absolutely wrong? See below
  • Do I have any sympathy for guys who decide to run a train on a drunk girl, even is she seems ok with it at the time? Nope
  • Should I have sympathy for them? Nope
Click to expand...

FITMMHO
Fixed it to match my humble opinion?

Justice, whether from the legal system or the school system, should not, can not MUST NOT take into consideration anything at all related to who they are / what their schedule is / how "important" they are. If any other student would be tried / vetted in this time frame, football players are. PERIOD.

Also, why expressing MY opinion (not correcting yours), anyone who is dumb enough to pull a train on a girl (or guy) whom they've never even met, let alone talked to, deserves anything or everything like this they get. What kind of moron does something like that?

What if she was a somewhat old looking 16 year old? It's ok, my teammate on the way in said she's cool with it.

I've met some people whom I watched consume enough alcohol to kill most adults, and if you talked to him, you'd never know he had anything to drink. "She seemed ok" doesn't quite cut it.

/end personal opinion
 
As a society how much responsibility do we have to our fellow man (or woman in this case?)

I was raised by my dad with the idea that I saw somebody potentially in need that it was my obligation to render immediate help. If I saw a kid fall off his bike, If as an adult I saw or come on a car accident. In many states it is illegal to leave or pass an accident without providing a reasonable attempt to help. Do we also stand responsible, not just morally but also legally, to aid someone who is likely being sexually assaulted?

From the standpoint of a University conduct code this is an interesting question? It is a given that in a college setting you are going to have people who make bad decisions, both in terms of making themselves vulnerable or in taking advantage of an inappropriate opportunity.

As a parent who in a few years is likely to have two daughters in college I think I could support a standard that makes kids responsible for protecting others from severe harm.
 
Buffnik said:
Yep. Perpetuates the unhealthy and immoral myth that heterosexual sex is something that is done to a woman by a man. As if it's already kind of rapey whenever sex occurs and the man & woman are not equal in the decision. If the man is drunk, it is irrelevant. If the woman is drunk, it is rape.

Not joking here: I plan on having a "consent and non-disclosure" agreement prepared for my son once he comes of age that he can have girls and later women sign on his mobile before they have sexual relations.
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I was wondering if you had daughters. I do.
 
c502cid said:
I was wondering if you had daughters. I do.
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I have a younger sister, if it means anything. I was definitively protective of her and know very well that life is harder for girls in a lot of ways, particularly with sexuality. And I believe we need to change the way we socialize people to think that as a guy you're supposed to be on the hunt to get what you can off of girls and, vice versa, that girls are empowered to make decisions about how sexually active they want to be without being judged by a different standard for it than guys are. That's what I was getting at. I'm not willing to accept and perpetuate the dynamic we've lived with a long time in this country. I will grant, though, that we have to be pragmatic about the world that is versus the world that should be. I just don't want to be so pragmatic that we codify/accept something that's wrong-minded.
 
I have three daughters currently in college. Their mom and I have taught them that personal responsibility is just that, you and you alone are responsible for your own actions. Don't put yourself in situations where anything can get out of control. Say no and say no loudly. Yes they get drunk at parties. Yes they are normal college students at three different schools. However, consent agreements, college rules, title 9, or not, we as parents must teach our sons (and daughters) that people are to be treated with respect and alcohol and youth are not an excuse just like we must teach our daughters (and sons) that you own up to your actions. This is a bad situation with grey areas all around, but the school is doing the right thing.
 
Buffnik said:
I have a younger sister, if it means anything. I was definitively protective of her and know very well that life is harder for girls in a lot of ways, particularly with sexuality. And I believe we need to change the way we socialize people to think that as a guy you're supposed to be on the hunt to get what you can off of girls and, vice versa, that girls are empowered to make decisions about how sexually active they want to be without being judged by a different standard for it than guys are. That's what I was getting at. I'm not willing to accept and perpetuate the dynamic we've lived with a long time in this country. I will grant, though, that we have to be pragmatic about the world that is versus the world that should be. I just don't want to be so pragmatic that we codify/accept something that's wrong-minded.
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^^respect^^
 
c502cid said:
I have three daughters currently in college. Their mom and I have taught them that personal responsibility is just that, you and you alone are responsible for your own actions. Don't put yourself in situations where anything can get out of control. Say no and say no loudly. Yes they get drunk at parties. Yes they are normal college students at three different schools. However, consent agreements, college rules, title 9, or not, we as parents must teach our sons (and daughters) that people are to be treated with respect and alcohol and youth are not an excuse just like we must teach our daughters (and sons) that you own up to your actions. This is a bad situation with grey areas all around, but the school is doing the right thing.
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You are completely correct here. Ultimately the person most responsible for your actions and your safety is you. We have to teach our kids that as they grow up the right decisions have ever increasing consequences and benefits.

We also though have to be aware that young people even though they may be legally adults still don't have the experience and judgement that will always insure that they don't end up in potentially negative situations. Colleges cannot stop their students from making bad choices nor can they guarantee their complete safety. They should however be pro-active and by their teaching and their rules create an environment where students learn to look out for each other instead of ignoring or worse participating as others are being taken advantage off.
 
ZandiBuff said:
FITMMHO
Fixed it to match my humble opinion?

Justice, whether from the legal system or the school system, should not, can not MUST NOT take into consideration anything at all related to who they are / what their schedule is / how "important" they are. If any other student would be tried / vetted in this time frame, football players are. PERIOD.

Also, why expressing MY opinion (not correcting yours), anyone who is dumb enough to pull a train on a girl (or guy) whom they've never even met, let alone talked to, deserves anything or everything like this they get. What kind of moron does something like that?

What if she was a somewhat old looking 16 year old? It's ok, my teammate on the way in said she's cool with it.

I've met some people whom I watched consume enough alcohol to kill most adults, and if you talked to him, you'd never know he had anything to drink. "She seemed ok" doesn't quite cut it.

/end personal opinion
Click to expand...

That's like, totally, my gut response to all of this. Thanks for putting the angry part of my opinion into words better than I could.
 
QUOTE="ZandiBuff, post: 2142822, member: 5992"]How many women (or for that matter, men, but in this case it was a woman) would sober, consent to a multi-party sexual encounter? [/QUOTE]

Guilty as charged(y)
 
Buff fanatic said:
QUOTE="ZandiBuff, post: 2142822, member: 5992"]How many women (or for that matter, men, but in this case it was a woman) would sober, consent to a multi-party sexual encounter?
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Guilty as charged(y)[/QUOTE]
You would seriously stick your dick somewhere that 7 other dude's had just been, knowing that they had just been there?

They make therapy for this sort of thing
 
My whole thing with this is personal responsibility. That goes for both parties. You live your life reckless, reckless **** happens. I don't who to believe in this but it's something youngsters should think about. It doesn't matter if she is willing, at the time, it matters how you carry you.
 
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