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Why is Boyle unwilling to move on from Prioleau and/or Rohn?

When were talking about "AD support" are we talking about money for recruiting? Something else monetary? A relatively new practice facility is a start, but not enough, so what's missing? Regardless, the foundation of the program, recruiting, hasn't been consistently good good enough in recent seasons.

dollars are a big part of it. This data is outdated but here is what the PAC12 spent on basketball recruiting in 12-13 and a 5 year average 08-13 (except USC and Stanford, which don't report)

ASU: $148,881/$150,495
Arizona: $212,486/$184,909
Cal: $93,532/$109,818
Colorado: $90,342/$126,589
Oregon: $227,201/$200,191
Oregon State: $153,652/$148,473
UCLA: $200,641/$152,244
Utah: $210,144/$175,604
Washington:$158,867/$140,896
Washington State: $155,038/$131,238

from usa-today: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...cruiting-kansas-kentucky-louisville/24911927/
Recruiting is the lifeblood of college sports and a USA TODAY Sports analysis of 214 public schools found a correlation between schools that spend big on recruiting and schools that had success making the NCAA tournament from 2010 to 2014. (The one-year lag accounts for the time it takes for recruiting classes to enter school.)
Among the eight schools that made the tournament all five years, the average five-year spending was $1.2 million and the average annual spending was $231,000. Among the 33 schools that made the tournament three or more times, the average five-year spending was $912,000 and the average annual spending was $182,000. Among the 181 schools that made the tournament two times or fewer, the average five-year spending was $384,000 and the average annual spending was $77,000. And among the 144 schools that did not make the tournament in any of the five years, the average five-year spending was $325,000 and the annual average spending was $65,000.
Kansas' recruiting spending is driven in part by the program's use of private aircraft, mostly university-owned. For example, according to data published earlier this month by the Lawrence Journal-World, KU's basketball program spent nearly $275,000 on private aircraft for recruiting during the 2013 fiscal year. That accounts for just more than half of the nearly $515,000 the school reported spending on men's basketball recruiting that year.

I think they meant to say the 5 year total was $912,000, but we come in at half that with the same/similar results. The number one thing that CU could do is hire a director of scouting. I don't know if that is a role shared by multiple people or a dual role, but having someone like coach Chev for the basketball program would be huge. Just coordinate the recruiting efforts to specific talent areas. They also need their own trainer or maybe a better trainer. I know they have Englehart, but he has more of a football training background. At some point in the future, a private airplane would go a long way and a lot of schools use charter flights to reduce the costs, or they have very wealthy donors with private jets that allow the school the use them for recruiting purposes. Other pipe dream stuff would be their own video team.
 
BuffG, I think people are anticipating losing seasons the next 2 years. Unless we get very lucky with recruits panning out, the chickens may come home to roost.

Edit: but you are right, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Next year may be a Tad low point. The high point was the day before Dinwiddie's exploded acl. In retrospect, so frustrating. If dinwiddie doesn't go down, we make a sweet 16/elite 8 run.

Next year is likely a rebuilding year but, '11-'12 seemed to be the same with Burks and Higgins having left. Like you said, '13-'14 should've been a great year and it wasn't. I didn't see anyone saying the '14-'15 team would be sub .500. Many were surprised by the bounce back in '15-'16. Almost everyone expected more from this last season.

We're so far removed from when we competed for national titles that some people think Tad is the greatest we've ever had. His early success made others expect a perfectly linear trend upwards and now they're mad. The extremist takes prevent worthwhile discussion.
 
Who is blaming 100% of the MBB failures on RG? RG is absolutely not the problem on campus or with the MBB.

The problem is recruiting, and the inability of the coaching staff to get players to play help defense, close out on the perimeter and running a stagnant offense for the majority of games. All of that is able to be fixed with clinics (for coaches too), new assistant coaches (one or two) and Tad realizing his weaknesses and willingness to improve on them. I think the recent bill allowing coaches to be signed for more than one year will eventually help Tad out and allow him to bring in a big recruiting gun. The ball could get rolling (no pun intended) with one top 25 recruit.

Tad has laid down a solid foundation! I am happy is the coach at CU. I hope he can elevate the program to the next level now. Competing at the Sweet 16 level should keep the masses happy and the seats full.
 
I will not give up on Tad, but he's far from perfect. Tad, hands down, has been given the support he needs to attract high level recruits to Boulder. Tad just got 3 four star recruits, so I think the support/facilities is helping on the recruiting trail.

However, I can see where the frustration comes from. There have been too many misses on player evals and too much player turnover, based mostly on those player evals I think. Stalzer, Hopkins, Thomas, Fletcher, Guzonjic, Jenkins, are all misses from the recruiting trail in my opinion. I think guys like Fletcher, Thomas and Hopkins had talent, but for unknown reasons, they weren't getting better. Love Ben Mills, but he was a miss. What I can say with a few exceptions, is that Tad isn't afraid to try to improve the roster by shipping folks out. Tad wants to right the ship, and I think he even said it before, he can't build the program if guys are transferring out.

What most frustrates me, and I'm sure Tad as well, is the lack of player development, especially the big men. Wes Gordon didn't get much better from his Freshman to Senior year. Fortune was a very big disappointment. Akyazili didn't get any better, maybe even got worse, couldn't get on the court. Talton didn't get any better. Dom isn't getting much better. Tory's body looks great, but he doesn't appear much better than what he came in at. If it weren't for Josh Scott being our hometown boy, who knows where CU would have been the last 5 years? It could be possible that Josh Scott kept Tad off the hot seat, cause if there wasn't any Scott, sigh...

If we're planning to keep guys for 5 years, and field veteran squads, we better freaking develop these guys. Though King got better, he regressed a little last year. It was embarrassing seeing Freshman from UCLA, USC, Washington, Utah, punking our 4th year Juniors and 5th year Seniors. Maybe there needs to be a culture shift of some sort, because it's hard to root for a soft team. I'm tired of seeing our Juniors and Seniors hitting the floor and not looking noticeably better than they were the year before.

IMO the reason why these Coaches aren't getting called for jobs is because CU really hasn't done anything. One and done NCAA tournaments does not get the exposure Tad needs to start slinging out his assistants as if they are true prodigies of the game. Start getting into some sweet 16's, Elite 8's, and tad won't be able to keep any assistants. With that said, I think a little shake up may be necessary to bring the fire back into program, some attitude. For some reason, the players aren't buying into Boyle's game. Play gritty, defend and rebound. I saw the post about recruiting the right kind of Dogs. Maybe that's the biggest problem here.
 
Tad, hands down, has been given the support he needs to attract high level recruits to Boulder. Tad just got 3 four star recruits, so I think the support/facilities is helping on the recruiting trail.

However, I can see where the frustration comes from. There have been too many misses on player evals and too much player turnover, based mostly on those player evals I think. Stalzer, Hopkins, Thomas, Fletcher, Guzonjic, Jenkins, are all misses from the recruiting trail in my opinion. I think guys like Fletcher, Thomas and Hopkins had talent, but for unknown reasons, they weren't getting better. Love Ben Mills, but he was a miss. What I can say with a few exceptions, is that Tad isn't afraid to try to improve the roster by shipping folks out. Tad wants to right the ship, and I think he even said it before, he can't build the program if guys are transferring out.

What most frustrates me, and I'm sure Tad as well, is the lack of player development, especially the big men. Wes Gordon didn't get much better from his Freshman to Senior year. Fortune was a very big disappointment. Akyazili didn't get any better, maybe even got worse, couldn't get on the court. Talton didn't get any better. Dom isn't getting much better. Tory's body looks great, but he doesn't appear much better than what he came in at. If it weren't for Josh Scott being our hometown boy, who knows where CU would have been the last 5 years? It could be possible that Josh Scott kept Tad off the hot seat, cause if there wasn't any Scott, sigh...

If we're planning to keep guys for 5 years, and field veteran squads, we better freaking develop these guys. Though King got better, he regressed a little last year. It was embarrassing seeing Freshman from UCLA, USC, Washington, Utah, punking our 4th year Juniors and 5th year Seniors. Maybe there needs to be a culture shift of some sort, because it's hard to root for a soft team. I'm tired of seeing our Juniors and Seniors hitting the floor and not looking noticeably better than they were the year before.

IMO the reason why these Coaches aren't getting called for jobs is because CU really hasn't done anything. One and done NCAA tournaments does not get the exposure Tad needs to start slinging out his assistants as if they are true prodigies of the game. Start getting into some sweet 16's, Elite 8's, and tad won't be able to keep any assistants. With that said, I think a little shake up may be necessary to bring the fire back into program, some attitude. For some reason, the players aren't buying into Boyle's game. Play gritty, defend and rebound. I saw the post about recruiting the right kind of Dogs. Maybe that's the biggest problem here.

1.) That's incorrect. Comparatively, he's been given the resources to finish bottom 1/4 of the conference every year. He hasn't.
2.) Tory is a completely, and I mean completely, different player than he was at first. He might frustrate me more than any other player, but to say he hasn't developed is ignoring the skills he has shown.
3.) That's college basketball, seniors get punked by lottery picks.

Much of the rest, I agree with. But those points needed to be called out.
 
What most frustrates me, and I'm sure Tad as well, is the lack of player development, especially the big men. Wes Gordon didn't get much better from his Freshman to Senior year. Fortune was a very big disappointment. Akyazili didn't get any better, maybe even got worse, couldn't get on the court. Talton didn't get any better. Dom isn't getting much better. Tory's body looks great, but he doesn't appear much better than what he came in at. If it weren't for Josh Scott being our hometown boy, who knows where CU would have been the last 5 years? It could be possible that Josh Scott kept Tad off the hot seat, cause if there wasn't any Scott, sigh...

I respect the well thought out post. There's a lot of good stuff in there. But I just don't agree about the common theme I see posted around here that no one gets better. Josh Fortune was a disaster shooting this year, that was unexpected and honestly I've never seen a solid shooter like him become completely so awful over a complete season, so that was weird. Akyazili also regressed this year, I agree. But every other player here absolutely improved from year one until the end/now. Did they go from bench guys to all conference players? Definitely not. Was Wes disappointing this year? Yep. But it's also just untrue to say he didn't get much better throughout his career. I thought Talton would never see the court when he came in. He became a solid rotation guard. Tory Miller has undoubtedly become a better basketball player the last 3 years, to say anything else is simply untrue. Dom, while we were all hopeful he'd be an all pac level player (he isn't), continues to get better. Not becoming all conference does not mean someone has not improved.
 
I respect the well thought out post. There's a lot of good stuff in there. But I just don't agree about the common theme I see posted around here that no one gets better. Josh Fortune was a disaster shooting this year, that was unexpected and honestly I've never seen a solid shooter like him become completely so awful over a complete season, so that was weird. Akyazili also regressed this year, I agree. But every other player here absolutely improved from year one until the end/now. Did they go from bench guys to all conference players? Definitely not. Was Wes disappointing this year? Yep. But it's also just untrue to say he didn't get much better throughout his career. I thought Talton would never see the court when he came in. He became a solid rotation guard. Tory Miller has undoubtedly become a better basketball player the last 3 years, to say anything else is simply untrue. Dom, while we were all hopeful he'd be an all pac level player (he isn't), continues to get better. Not becoming all conference does not mean someone has not improved.

++ about Fortune and Talton. Maybe I'm being too harsh here, but I just haven't seen these talented young men grow into being a Pac-12 force (at least in my mind). I'm not seeing the stats show it either. If CU is to become a Pac-12 force, Tad's redshirt plan has to come to fruition. We can't have our best big man, a 5th year senior averaging 6 and 6, feel me. Wes averaged 6 and 6 back in 2013-2014. Tory averaging 5 and 4 this year just ain't going to get it done. I'm not seeing the results here that says these guys are being developed into legit difference makers at the Pac-12 level. We're making bench players when we need some Ballers.
 
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To be fair to coaching staff, they took a redshirt D2 player who turned into an all Pac 12 performer.
Markannen, Ball, Fultz, and Leaf are top performers regardless of class and each of their names will be called real early in the June draft.
 
Markannen, Ball, Fultz, and Leaf are top performers regardless of class and each of their names will be called real early in the June draft.
Yeah, every one keeps reminding me, but unfortunately we don't get one and done's here at CU.:cry::cry::cry: Which makes it imperative that CU effectively develop impact Juniors and Seniors. Or find impact DII players :):):)
 
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Yeah, every one keeps reminding me, but unfortunately we don't get one and done's here at CU.:cry::cry::cry: Which makes it imperative that CU effectively develop impact Juniors and Seniors. Or find impact DII players :):):)

I would like to see a bigger commitment to strength training. If you've got guys staying, it's not like they're going to become better athletes over 4 years. They'll develop maturity & basketball IQ, probably improve as FT shooters and whatnot. The only physical advantage they can leverage against a lottery freshman is strength built in the weight room.

I know that this has improved a lot from the joke of a weight room and strength program we had pre-IPF, but I also think there's another big step that can be taken. I believe that Tad saw that, too, which is why he started having guys stay in Boulder over the summer (well, strength training and also summer school).
 
I would like to see a bigger commitment to strength training. If you've got guys staying, it's not like they're going to become better athletes over 4 years. They'll develop maturity & basketball IQ, probably improve as FT shooters and whatnot. The only physical advantage they can leverage against a lottery freshman is strength built in the weight room.

I know that this has improved a lot from the joke of a weight room and strength program we had pre-IPF, but I also think there's another big step that can be taken. I believe that Tad saw that, too, which is why he started having guys stay in Boulder over the summer (well, strength training and also summer school).

This is a very good point. And while I like Rohn, I'm not sure he's the best person to have as a big man coach. If we do end up making changes, I wouldn't object if we got a legit big guy coach in here (although if there's a corrupt AAU coach that would like a gig, that would be my first choice).
 
(although if there's a corrupt AAU coach that would like a gig, that would be my first choice).

Love it, LOL!!! The more I think about it, we do need a different type of recruiter. Someone gifted, young, nasty... With that said, along with Siefert, Brown, Peters, I'm excited about the upcoming class, I think Tad and company did a good job. However, it would be nice to get some top-25 blue chippers into the program every couple years or so we can start making some consistent noise. I wouldn't mind having some 2 and done players.
 
On recruiting:

Championship teams can be built on Top 150 recruits -- but they have to fill your roster, because some will be misses and a group of misfits and misses with 1 or 2 "plus" players isn't going to win enough at this level.

So...

1. Do not take big risks in recruiting. Most times it will not work out. Risks on character to get talent backfire. Risks on physical traits because something about the kid's game and character excited the coaches... also backfires. There are too few spots on a hoops roster to screw around.

2. Don't take "sight unseen" international players. Don't take someone because he happened to be born in Colorado. Don't take someone who has had good exposure but no one else has seen fit to offer.

3. If you can't fill your recruiting spots with Top 150 guys, then fill those remaining spots with grad transfers and JUCOs. With them, you have a very good idea what you'll get and you'll get it as instant production. (btw, the best sign from this spring has been that Tad is finally recruiting JUCOs.) Regular transfers also a great approach & CU has had a ton of success from that approach.
 
Wow, some fantastic insight and opinions here. Very in-depth, at least. I also think that if we move a coach, Rohn should be the first one to go. I'm fine with the guard development. Akyazili was pretty maxed out when he got here. Just about everyone else has gotten better. Bigs, you can't say the same about. I don't have any names, but I'd love a recruiter based in Cali or Michigan. The point is, I think that the players on this team are developing at a normal rate when you look at the rest of the country.

I love Grier on staff, and I think as his influence and comfort grows, the recruiting will get better, as well as the guard play. He'll do well here and leave for a HC job soon enough. I think Prioleau does just fine on the coaching and recruiting side of things, and obviously the head man himself is doing fine. The best case scenario this offseason is that someone takes a chance on Rohn and we get to hire a young recruiter in his place.
 
On recruiting:

Championship teams can be built on Top 150 recruits -- but they have to fill your roster, because some will be misses and a group of misfits and misses with 1 or 2 "plus" players isn't going to win enough at this level.

So...

1. Do not take big risks in recruiting. Most times it will not work out. Risks on character to get talent backfire. Risks on physical traits because something about the kid's game and character excited the coaches... also backfires. There are too few spots on a hoops roster to screw around.

2. Don't take "sight unseen" international players. Don't take someone because he happened to be born in Colorado. Don't take someone who has had good exposure but no one else has seen fit to offer.

3. If you can't fill your recruiting spots with Top 150 guys, then fill those remaining spots with grad transfers and JUCOs. With them, you have a very good idea what you'll get and you'll get it as instant production. (btw, the best sign from this spring has been that Tad is finally recruiting JUCOs.) Regular transfers also a great approach & CU has had a ton of success from that approach.

Bravo.
 
I think we all are in agreement, but I'd like to add that I'd like our recruiting efforts also dip into top 50 occasionally. Why not include a Dorsey type of talent every year in your recruiting efforts? I know no-inside information, so perhaps Tad and crew actually do what I'm suggesting. But to me, from just Rivals and Scouts lists, it seems like they rarely try to get a top 50 player to sign. Sure, there was Davis last year, but he was a CO kid. Tad makes sure he recruits every CO kid if they pass the bar, which is fine by me. I'm excited about Schwartz, Bey and Battey, but was there an effort to aim higher than even those kids? I think there should be. We should be trying to get the best players we can, and I get why we don't go after top 10 players. Still, I feel like we can aim higher than what I sometimes feel like we do.

Quick aside, just bc we're talking recruiting and I haven't had a chance to really look into it. Does anyone know why/how WKU was able to pull off their class?
 
I think we all are in agreement, but I'd like to add that I'd like our recruiting efforts also dip into top 50 occasionally. Why not include a Dorsey type of talent every year in your recruiting efforts? I know no-inside information, so perhaps Tad and crew actually do what I'm suggesting. But to me, from just Rivals and Scouts lists, it seems like they rarely try to get a top 50 player to sign. Sure, there was Davis last year, but he was a CO kid. Tad makes sure he recruits every CO kid if they pass the bar, which is fine by me. I'm excited about Schwartz, Bey and Battey, but was there an effort to aim higher than even those kids? I think there should be. We should be trying to get the best players we can, and I get why we don't go after top 10 players. Still, I feel like we can aim higher than what I sometimes feel like we do.

Quick aside, just bc we're talking recruiting and I haven't had a chance to really look into it. Does anyone know why/how WKU was able to pull off their class?

from what I can tell WKU pulled off a 5 star recruit from Louisiana that had a really bad offer list. So my guess is he is an academic risk.
 
I think we all are in agreement, but I'd like to add that I'd like our recruiting efforts also dip into top 50 occasionally. Why not include a Dorsey type of talent every year in your recruiting efforts? I know no-inside information, so perhaps Tad and crew actually do what I'm suggesting. But to me, from just Rivals and Scouts lists, it seems like they rarely try to get a top 50 player to sign. Sure, there was Davis last year, but he was a CO kid. Tad makes sure he recruits every CO kid if they pass the bar, which is fine by me. I'm excited about Schwartz, Bey and Battey, but was there an effort to aim higher than even those kids? I think there should be. We should be trying to get the best players we can, and I get why we don't go after top 10 players. Still, I feel like we can aim higher than what I sometimes feel like we do.

Quick aside, just bc we're talking recruiting and I haven't had a chance to really look into it. Does anyone know why/how WKU was able to pull off their class?
Rick $tan$bury
 
I think we all are in agreement, but I'd like to add that I'd like our recruiting efforts also dip into top 50 occasionally. Why not include a Dorsey type of talent every year in your recruiting efforts? I know no-inside information, so perhaps Tad and crew actually do what I'm suggesting. But to me, from just Rivals and Scouts lists, it seems like they rarely try to get a top 50 player to sign. Sure, there was Davis last year, but he was a CO kid. Tad makes sure he recruits every CO kid if they pass the bar, which is fine by me. I'm excited about Schwartz, Bey and Battey, but was there an effort to aim higher than even those kids? I think there should be. We should be trying to get the best players we can, and I get why we don't go after top 10 players. Still, I feel like we can aim higher than what I sometimes feel like we do.

Quick aside, just bc we're talking recruiting and I haven't had a chance to really look into it. Does anyone know why/how WKU was able to pull off their class?

Must have been one heck of a great pitch about the academic opportunities at WKU.

You know the reason. Just as you know why LSU got some of the players it did. You cannot recruit the guys you're talking about unless you have an organization of boosters who will put you in that game. This is why you won't often see the Buffs after a Top 50 guy unless he's in-state.

Edit: Maybe there's a reason why Houston made a move for one of WKU's assistants:
 
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Using Dorsey as an example is a bit ironic, as they tried to make a huge play on him but reports were that he got into a fist fight with some of the players on his first night :LOL:

But seriously, I think CU needs to be doing the following every class:

- Closing on a top 100 guard.
- Closing on a top 150 wing.
- Closing on a big, regardless of ranking, who is mobile with a high motor. I don't give a damn about offense.

You do that, you compete at a high level.
 
On recruiting:

Championship teams can be built on Top 150 recruits -- but they have to fill your roster, because some will be misses and a group of misfits and misses with 1 or 2 "plus" players isn't going to win enough at this level.

So...

1. Do not take big risks in recruiting. Most times it will not work out. Risks on character to get talent backfire. Risks on physical traits because something about the kid's game and character excited the coaches... also backfires. There are too few spots on a hoops roster to screw around.

2. Don't take "sight unseen" international players. Don't take someone because he happened to be born in Colorado. Don't take someone who has had good exposure but no one else has seen fit to offer.

3. If you can't fill your recruiting spots with Top 150 guys, then fill those remaining spots with grad transfers and JUCOs. With them, you have a very good idea what you'll get and you'll get it as instant production. (btw, the best sign from this spring has been that Tad is finally recruiting JUCOs.) Regular transfers also a great approach & CU has had a ton of success from that approach.

Bullet 3 reminds me of the initial philosophy of arguably the greatest college football coach of all time (Bill Snyder). Outsource your young player development to limit exposure to non-productive years and misses.

To the contrary, to pay a single scholarship year for 2 in return is a heavy price compared to 1:4. (Grad transfer offers much better return) So really, it becomes a question in whether you believe in your staffs ability to evaluate talent and develop it. Of Tads staff, I respond with a resounding no.
 
Didn't know where else to put this, but Keelan Lawson of Memphis was fired today, which means that his two top 50 sons are transferring out of the program. I couldn't find what Lawson coaches, but if he coaches bigs, I'm in
 
Rick $tan$bury

Thanks man - I honestly thought he was still out of the game. ...didn't he retire, as opposed to getting laid off? Regardless, thanks; had no clue he was HC at WKU; saves me some time internet searching time.

Using Dorsey as an example is a bit ironic, as they tried to make a huge play on him but reports were that he got into a fist fight with some of the players on his first night :LOL:

But seriously, I think CU needs to be doing the following every class:

- Closing on a top 100 guard.
- Closing on a top 150 wing.
- Closing on a big, regardless of ranking, who is mobile with a high motor. I don't give a damn about offense.

You do that, you compete at a high level.

Not that I'm always on here, but I wish you'd post more.
 
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