2013 Pac 12 Tournament: Colorado v Arizona Game Thread

[torero]

You're correct that it's very ambiguous, but you guys have no room to complain about the refs in this game. 28-16 free throws, and a lot of UA's came at the very end when the refs were forced to put them on the line. When your team has to foul the other three times just to get them into the bonus at the end, you know the refs were not your problem.

Just to be clear, this is a problem I've had for a long time. Block/Charge calls didn't dictate this game. The officiating isn't why Az won today, I thought I made it pretty clear they were the better team today. But I pray to the basketball gods that some sort of solution is created here.

 

[UACat]

It's hard to draw fouls when you're shooting 30 3's... Colorado drives to the basket more and draws more fouls. That's why there's a discrepancy, not because the refs were giving us a break or giving us calls.

I actually agree with you. I just wish opposing fan bases had this same mentality when they're on the losing end of it, but they never do.

 

[OUBuff]

This one was different than the first one. We started off really cold but weren't too bad in the end (20-28). The first game, we couldn't hit FT at the end to ice it. First half FT's killed us but not so much down the stretch. Too many turnovers and not enough assists was a bigger issue today, imho.

We did a real bad job at closing out on the 3pt shooters all night, well until the last 2-3 minutes anyway. They were way too productive from 3. But, yea, agree with the TOs being a big problem. assists is something we have where we have shown weakness all year.

 

[FightCu1414]

Not the end of the world. 9 or 10 in the Dance..hopefully 10

Just out of curiosity it sucks we lost especially since for whatever reason I hate U of A. But if we had won and lost to UCLA tomorrow wouldve that put us in the eight or nine as compared to a ten or eleven. If so it may be a blessing in disguise.

 

[UACat]

Just to be clear, this is a problem I've had for a long time. Block/Charge calls didn't dictate this game. The officiating isn't why Az won today, I thought I made it pretty clear they were the better team today. But I pray to the basketball gods that some sort of solution is created here.

Fair enough. Unfortunately I don't think an air-tight solution is realistic. If you try to call it all one way or the other it'll change the dynamics of the game way too much.

 

[CVilleBuff]

Just out of curiosity it sucks we lost especially since for whatever reason I hate U of A. But if we had won and lost to UCLA tomorrow wouldve that put us in the eight or nine as compared to a ten or eleven. If so it may be a blessing in disguise.

Yep, beating UCLA tomorrow would have been highly unlikely, and only winning the tournament would have brought us to a 6. Just not much of a difference, and possibly a blessing to avoid 8/9. U of A isn't beating UCLA tomorrow, either.

 

[rialto]

Give this team huge credit for playing hard, after a tough game yesterday. Arizona has much more depth of talent, had yesterday off and played two games in the last 13 days, whereas CU played four games in the same time span. Arizona also played great in its last game, blowing out ASU, who is also playing well.

It is a testament to Boyle and staff, and the toughness he has instilled into this team, that we could even stay in the game.

 

[OUBuff]

Yep, beating UCLA tomorrow would have been highly unlikely, and only winning the tournament would have brought us to a 6. Just not much of a difference, and possibly a blessing to avoid 8/9. U of A isn't beating UCLA tomorrow, either.

Truth is, I don't care who wins the championship. I think I may like to see Utah make a CUesque run, but don't want that at our tourney expense of course.

 

[rialto]

Yep, beating UCLA tomorrow would have been highly unlikely, and only winning the tournament would have brought us to a 6. Just not much of a difference, and possibly a blessing to avoid 8/9. U of A isn't beating UCLA tomorrow, either.

I'm not so sure - U of A has by far the most depth of high level of talent in the conference. If U of A plays defense tomorrow like it did today, I think U of A beats UCLA.

 

[rolandftw]

The free throw shooting in the first half probably put us in a 11 point hole, when it should have been closer to 6. Bad unforced turnovers. Sucks, as I think we really had a shot to win that one. Definitely not a fan of the Roberson foul call late, but he got away with a travel that led to two points a possession earlier so I can't say we got jobbed by the refs.

Can't say we would have won the game with better free throw shooting, but certainly would have had a much better shot. Hoping we don't get hosed by the committee

 

[alec10burks]

Dinwiddie and Andre stepped it up big time today to say the least. I just wish the whole team would put in a full 40 minute effort. I'm getting tired of them only turning it on when they need to. It needs to stop.

 

[OUBuff]

Give this team huge credit for playing hard, after a tough game yesterday. Arizona has much more depth of talent, had yesterday off and played two games in the last 13 days, whereas CU played four games in the same time span. Arizona also played great in its last game, blowing out ASU, who is also playing well.

It is a testament to Boyle and staff, and the toughness he has instilled into this team, that we could even stay in the game.

Truthfully, I think this team overachieved this year. I honestly, in October, I didn't expect CU to be in a position to be in the tournament. I thought this was a "rebuilding" year. Can't wait for them to impress in the tourney and for the upcoming years.

 

[alec10burks]

Boyle "We've had two blatant fouls that have led to concussions on our basketball team and it's really disappointing."

Well said.

 

[BuffLuke80]

I think 10 is a good spot, Lunardi has us as locked in from what I just saw. I liked the no quit the team showed. That said, quit making it so hard on yourselves and come out ready. Just youth for ya but good comeback.

 

[L Buff]

It is concerning how this team hasn't gotten up for two games this week. 10 minutes of great effort is not going to cut it.

Oh LBuff, care to comment on this?
Chen: 2 points (1-1), 4 turnovers, 1 foul
Booker: 12 points (4-10 fg, 2-2 free throw, 2-5 3pt), 1 rebound, 3 turnovers, 3 fouls

Give me 10 more points with one less turnover

You really want to go there?

Okay ... first of all, you're not counting Ski's offensive foul in the first half as a TO, which essentially it was.

Second ... Ski had 26 minutes of PT compared to 11 for Chen. He should have a lot more points. Kudos to him for finally stepping up in the second half and scoring 40% from the field for the first time since anyone can remember.

Third .... curious that you didn't post Chen and Ski's line score from yesterday ... when Ski was a whopping 1-9 from the field while having 29 minutes of PT, compared to Chen's 14 minutes. Also Ski had 2 TOs to Chen's 0 TOs. And they both had 4 assists, despite Chen getting less than half of Ski's minutes.

Fourth ... a so-called "shooting guard" who goes 5-19 for a total of 19 points over 2 games (26%) ain't cutting it ... and his season average is 36%, by far the lowest of any starter on the team (and Chen's 41%) ... and I submit that his FG % over the conference season is lower than that.

Fifth .. who knows if Chen, had he had more PT and been able to get into the flow of a game more, might have much better stats? And it was clear from today that Talton deserved more PT also. In short ... Ski has not earned the amount of PT he has been getting over the past 2 months.

Sixth ... cherry picking comparative stats from one game is for idots. I leave it to you to determine what that makes you.

 

[Quattro]

You really want to go there?

Okay ... first of all, you're not counting Ski's offensive foul in the first half as a TO, which essentially it was.

Second ... Ski had 26 minutes of PT compared to 11 for Chen. He should have a lot more points. Kudos to him for finally stepping up in the second half and scoring 40% from the field for the first time since anyone can remember.

Third .... curious that you didn't post Chen and Ski's line score from yesterday ... when Ski was a whopping 1-9 from the field while having 29 minutes of PT, compared to Chen's 14 minutes. Also Ski had 2 TOs to Chen's 0 TOs. And they both had 4 assists, despite Chen getting less than half of Ski's minutes.

Fourth ... a so-called "shooting guard" who goes 5-19 for a total of 19 points over 2 games (26%) ain't cutting it ... and his season average is 36%, by far the lowest of any starter on the team (and Chen's 41%) ... and I submit that his FG % over the conference season is lower than that.

Fifth .. who knows if Chen, had he had more PT and been able to get into the flow of a game more, might have much better stats? And it was clear from today that Talton deserved more PT also. In short ... Ski has not earned the amount of PT he has been getting over the past 2 months.

Sixth ... cherry picking comparative stats from one game is for idots. I leave it to you to determine what that makes you.

Here is the only stat you need to know LBuff, win shares:

Chen: 0.96
Booker: 1.27

1.27>0.96

http://www.allbuffs.com/showthread....in-Shares-and-Adjusted-for-the-last-5-seasons

But also:
Booker:
12.6 points (0.39 points/minute)
2.2 assists (0.07 assists/minute)
3.6 rebounds (0.11 rebounds/minute)
1.3 steals (0.04 steals/minute)
2.1 turnovers (0.07 turnovers/minute)
32:01 minutes/game
36.9% shooting

Chen:
4.7 points (0.19 points/minute)
1.3 assists (0.05 assists/,minute)
2.3 rebounds (0.09 rebounds/minute)
0.9 steals (0.04 steals/minute)
1 turnover (0.04 turnovers/minute)
24:20 minutes
41.1% shooting

So....

Scoring: Booker
Assists: Booker
Rebounds: Booker
Steals: Tie
Turnovers: Chen
Win Share: Booker

Booker: 4
Chen: 1
Tie: 1

 

[Buffnik]

Zona is a really tough matchup for Ski. He had a decent game overall. I think the thing that hurt us the most was Scott getting into early foul trouble. He was never able to get in sync today.

 

[L Buff]

Here is the only stat you need to know LBuff, win shares:

Chen: 0.96
Booker: 1.27

1.27>0.96

http://www.allbuffs.com/showthread....in-Shares-and-Adjusted-for-the-last-5-seasons

But also:
Booker: 12.6 points (0.39 points/minute), 2.2 assists (0.07 assists/minute), 3.6 rebounds (0.11 rebounds/minute), 1.3 steals (0.04 steals/minute), 2.1 turnovers (0.07 turnovers/minute), 32:01 minutes/game, 36.9% shooting
Chen: 4.7 points (0.19 points/minute), 1.3 assists (0.05 assists/,minute), 2.3 rebounds (0.09 rebounds/minute), 0.9 steals (0.04 steals/minute), 1 turnover (0.04 turnovers/minute), 24:20 minutes, 41.1% shooting

So....

Scoring: Booker
Assists: Booker
Rebounds: Booker
Steals: Tie
Turnovers: Chen
Win Share: Booker

Booker: 4
Chen: 1
Tie: 1

Here's a clue ... when Chen is inserted in the lineup ... it's not as a SHOOTING GUARD. He's a ball handler. And while he makes mistakes (as did Nate Tomlinson last year) ... he is still effective. He had a bad first half this game ... but overall I trust him with the ball more that Ski, who takes ill-advised shots, tries to penetrate the inside and gets stripped (happened at least twice in the 1st half today) ... and commits other turnovers by trying to force the pass (maybe Chen has been watching him to much and decided by imitating him he might get more PT ... seems to work for Ski).

By your own "stats" ... Chen has fewer average TOs and a higher shooting percentage. But in any case ... please tell me how you think that Ski has performed as a shooting guard for a major Div I program with a fg % of 36%? *

* by way of comparison ... AZ doesn't have a starter with less than a 42% fg percentage ... and that's Mark Lyons, who gets incessant criticism from their fans.

 

[Junction]

Zona is a really tough matchup for Ski.

CAught the last several minutes of the game on XM, which was carrying the Ari feed (bunch of whining chucklehead homers - even worse than ours....). They were giving Ski lots of credit for his defense - said he may be the quickest PG in the conference, and has given Nick Johnson fits all season. Although Johnson did break loose for a good game tonight...

 

[slider]

I caught the last 30 mins in the UMC and there was a group of fat ass UofA fans watching in there.

 

[L Buff]

I caught the last 30 mins in the UMC and there was a group of fat ass UofA fans watching in there.

You should have kicked them out ... after kicking their asses.

 

[slider]

You should have kicked them out ... after kicking their asses.

Ya they were being really loud and annoying whenever UofA scored. Boo

 

[CVilleBuff]

Ya they were being really loud and annoying whenever UofA scored. Boo

What the **** is wrong with kids these days. You should see what happened to the kid in the Husker hat who walked into Chem 100 when I was there :lol:

 

[slider]

What the **** is wrong with kids these days. You should see what happened to the kid in the Husker hat who walked into Chem 100 when I was there :lol:

They were from ages 16-40 probably. Weird, who goes into the opponent team's student union to watch a game?

 

[Quattro]

Here's a clue ... when Chen is inserted in the lineup ... it's not as a SHOOTING GUARD. He's a ball handler. And while he makes mistakes (as did Nate Tomlinson last year) ... he is still effective. He had a bad first half this game ... but overall I trust him with the ball more that Ski, who takes ill-advised shots, tries to penetrate the inside and gets stripped (happened at least twice in the 1st half today) ... and commits other turnovers by trying to force the pass (maybe Chen has been watching him to much and decided by imitating him he might get more PT ... seems to work for Ski).

By your own "stats" ... Chen has fewer average TOs and a higher shooting percentage. But in any case ... please tell me how you think that Ski has performed as a shooting guard for a major Div I program with a fg % of 36%? *

* by way of comparison ... AZ doesn't have a starter with less than a 42% fg percentage ... and that's Mark Lyons, who gets incessant criticism from their fans.

Funny because Chen's offensive win share>Booker's offensive win share but Booker defensive win share>Chen's defensive win share. Booker has Chen beat in terms of x/minute in all but two of the categories where they tied one along with win shares along with a better free throw percentage. Maybe you should bring some quantitative evidence into your argument?

 

[alec10burks]

What the **** is wrong with kids these days. You should see what happened to the kid in the Husker hat who walked into Chem 100 when I was there :lol:

Haha what happened?

 

[L Buff]

Funny because Chen's offensive win share>Booker's offensive win share but Booker defensive win share>Chen's defensive win share. Booker has Chen beat in terms of x/minute in all but two of the categories where they tied one along with win shares along with a better free throw percentage. Maybe you should bring some quantitative evidence into your argument?

Maybe you should stop making excuses for a player with great potential that hasn't performed up to par since the Charleston Classic. In case you haven't noticed, I'm not the only one on this board who thinks so.

The fact remains that Ski has been an overall detriment to our offense during the conference season. That isn't to say that he doesn't contribute positively on defense, which he does.

 

[Quattro]

Maybe you should stop making excuses for a player with great potential that hasn't performed up to par since the Charleston Classic. In case you haven't noticed, I'm not the only one on this board who thinks so.

The fact remains that Ski has been an overall detriment to our offense during the conference season. That isn't to say that he doesn't contribute positively on defense, which he does.

Where am I making excuses for him? All I'm doing is stating, using facts unlike you, that even in his current state, that Booker>Chen based on quantitative evidence.

 

[L Buff]

Where am I making excuses for him? All I'm doing is stating, using facts unlike you, that even in his current state, that Booker>Chen based on quantitative evidence.

It's not a question of Booker v. Chen (although I submit that this argument started weeks ago when Mtn stated that very point, and at that point in the season I would have liked to have Chen get more PT with Booker on the bench) ... it's a question of Booker getting so much PT despite sub-par performance over everyone else who could contribute, e.g., Chen, Talton, Stalzer, hell ... the ****ing ball boy. In sum ... he has not performed up to the standard of a shooting guard for a major Div I program (which I trust you consider us to be at this point).

 

[Jello Bear]

Haha what happened?

Clown Rape?