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State of the Big 12 - feedback please...

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by ScottyBuff, Feb 13, 2010.

  1. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Allbuffers,

    I recently wrote this article (on Bleacher Report) and would like your opinions and feedback on any of the issues and points discussed.

    Thanks in advance!

    The Big 12 Is Under Attack: Can Beebe Battle Back?
     
    Hugegroove likes this.
  2. buff4bcs1985

    buff4bcs1985 Hail to the King

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    its pure garbage...jk :lol: nice work scotty :thumbsup:
     
  3. JimmyBuff

    JimmyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Good article scotty.. Don't like the idea of the Big 12 championship game in KC though.. I think the game should've been at the Cotton Bowl since the Big 12 inception... I prefer Dallas to host the football game (Jerry's place now) and Kansas City to host the basketball tournaments.



    Plus I don't know how you put Utah and BYU in the league together and be able to have an equal North/South split.. A new mexico and a Byu/Utah would work in the current North/South alignment.



    Lot of the other points are pretty strong.. The Big 12 has a problem when other members are openly talking about leaving (Missouri)..
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2010
  4. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks bcs!

    Thanks Jimmy. The CCG is tough, but I truly think it is the best compromise to be in KC, if the Cotton Bowl becomes the BCS Bowl Bid for the conference. Otherwise, if the Fiesta remains the BCS bowl tie-in, then I agree Dallas is the best spot. The B-Ball tourneys rotate between OKC and KC, incidentally.
     
  5. Darian3Hagan

    Darian3Hagan '89 Player of the Year Club Member

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    Good read. I think the Big 12 should be at Defcon 2. How do let another conference court your flagship university? That is equivalent to the big 12 courting Ohio state. The big 12 appears weak and lacks focus and CU should get out while they have some sort of leverage.
     
  6. aik

    aik Club Member Club Member

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    A lot of interesting potential moves presented in the article. Though I would argue Oklahoma City is a better representation of a market geographically central to the member schools. In terms of cities in the footprint with NFL stadiums, Dallas is still more central than Kansas City. Still an enjoyable read.
     
  7. OKCBuff

    OKCBuff Well-Known Member

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    GREAT read! I feel basically the same way. The Big 12 is at a crossroads and I think its about to get run over by a bus driven by the Big 10/SEC.

    "I am sure Dan Beebe and staff are not going to discuss their strategies publicly."

    I'm sorry, but I don't think he has a strategy. Didn't he come from the Ohio Valley Conference? We couldn't even get a D-I guy to run this league? The OVC is D-IA for football! Yikes.

    But back to the article: Good points all around and the conference should be proactive, but I think they've been caught flat-footed. When as many as NINE of your teams could bolt because of a shift to a super-conference landscape (CU to Pac; MU, KU, NU, ISU to Big 10; UT, A&M, OU, OSU to SEC) that has to be a cause for concern and a reminder to always be observant and alert about what's going on around you. And I get the impression from Bebee that he's just hanging out on the LBJ driving around without any clear direction. I think he just enjoys being a part of a conference that matters and that's enough.

    Matters for now, anyway. The death of the SWC was sudden and when Arkansas left, that was basically it. Mizzou or CU doing the same thing could end in the same result for the Big 12. Things are definitely DEFCON 2 and it won't take much to push that over more.

    If only the conference had our visionary leadership!
     
  8. Mick Ronson

    Mick Ronson Well-Known Member

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    and population density. at the end of the day, that's the fundamental issue for the old Big 8 teams. Denver is largely a pro sports town first and KC the other media market occupies 3 of the conference teams. the plains states just don't have the concentration of fannies to put in front of TV sets that the networks and advertisers are gonna get behind in a national way.
     
  9. Unleash Hell

    Unleash Hell Well-Known Member

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    **** the big 12, get out while you can buffs, don't make the mistake you did in 1994!
     
  10. Clean Undies

    Clean Undies Flagship of the 12-Pac Club Member

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    The angle of the article centers on what the B12 is doing to keep up with the SEC and Big10. The issues that are being raised are relevent for B12 supporters...whoever that might be.

    The blog I'd like to see is a review of the relevency of the B12. Does the B12 deserve support? Is there a case to be made that the B12 has done what it set out to do? The Big 8 loyalists are not content as the B12 plays the role of K-Mart to the SEC's WalMart. The SEC has more money, more heismen and more mNC's. The SEC has been the bigger, better conference since day one.

    The Big 8 loyalists see the B12 suffering from some of the same woes that existed in the old southwest conference, where Texas casts an enormous shadow over everyone not named OU. The North is an inferior after thought. I want to see a case to be made explaining why the B12 is a conference that is relevent and beneficial to college football.

    Or is the B12 just a hapless exclusive boy club that keeps the Utah's, TCU's and Boise's down while syphoning off network and bowl $$$$ in an irrational bureacracy? This bumbling body has marginally succeeded as measured by the longhorns and sooners, but get out bubba'ed by their rival conference in the south east.

    Tell me why any fan base in the north should care about being part of this odd collection of universities.
     
  11. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    haha great point of view Skid. Sounds like you are nearly finished writing the article that you want!

    I think the Big 12 is certainly very relevant, but it sits on a tenuous slope. The foundation of the conference wasn't built strong, and therefore the shifting landscape is exposing the cracks in the membership bonds. If the rest of college football was stabilized, none of this would be exposed; so that means there is certainly relevant value in the Big 12. Now that doesn't mean the Big 12 should continue on with the status quo. Restructuring the football schedule is important, but the idiocy of placing 3 of the top 4 drawing teams (all with over 80,000 seat stadiums) into one division was the trojan horse that has weakened the league's competitive balance. Oklahoma and Okie State have "gone to the dark side" by riding the Texas coat-tails instead of remaining in the voting block of the old Big 8 teams.

    I suppose it comes down to lack of better financial options?
     
  12. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Just big enough to "hang on to tradition" but not big enough to create growth opportunities in TV contracts, etc.

    I think that the league needs to create a bigger event in the city of Denver, and Buffs should probably support the idea of playing the Fusker game at Mile High as well. Move the CSU game back to the campuses as it is tough to fill Mile High anyway, and the national appeal of the game is minimal. The North has the Kansas-Missouri game as the only true "national" game that appeals to people, and that is played in a neutral site in an NFL stadium. The South has the Red River shootout, but also gets better juice out of the Bedlam game, and the Texas/A&M game. To reconnect with the greater population, I think the issue is vital for CU and the Big 12 North. I didn't put that in the article because it seemed a little "homerish".
     
  13. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks OKC, I agree, we are sitting in a precarious spot. But what happens if NOTHING happens in expansion to hurt the Big 12?

    Do we count our blessings and all bend our knee in gratitude that Texas didn't leave us?

    Drastic change is needed in the Big 12 to cement the conference in the current environment, but also to form a much better union in the future.
     
  14. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, OKC is truly more central, but since those schools are in the "south", my suggestion was to balance the CCG in the North, with a "BCS" Cotton Bowl in the South.

    Thanks for the read!
     
  15. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Precisely. If a league is only as strong as its weakest member, then aren't we also as weak as our strongest member. Our strongest member is looking for a new home, that is a significant sign. Oklahoma, Okie State, Texas Tech, and even Baylor better stop sucking the Texas teet and grow a spine to save their conference. If those schools would support equal revenue sharing, demand better distribution of conference games on TV then we all would be better off.
     
  16. Liver

    Liver modded mod Club Member Junta Member

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    the b12 is going to have to try to push back to save itself. but, what are its options?

    to get a better tv contract (or maybe even to get one that is good as current), they need to retain all the existing teams and probably add a couple markets. who fits the bill?

    if they add tcu, houston, smu, etc., what do they gain? uh, nothing really. this doesn't increase the national marketability of the conference, increase tv sets, etc.

    if they add byu and utah, it does add a market, but there would have to be some funky restructuring of the divisions. and, will adding the state of utah really be enough to make the tv contract go up? i don't know.

    they'll chase arkansas but why would they leave 8mm or whatever it is on the table by leaving the sec? and, again, how much does arky help with ratings? and, it ain't like iowa is going to leave the b10.

    so, where does that leave the b12? screwed, if you ask me.

    if ut leaves, it is truly armaggedon. it will cause CU and mizzery to flee for sure, i think. if just mizzery leaves, they might try to pull just utah in, and that *might* keep the conference together, but it won't be as lucrative. if just CU leaves, i think they'll add a texas school and reshuffle the divisions so that ut and ou can play for the conf. title every year.

    however it shakes out, i think CU needs to move. i am not really worried about the "leverage" argument because there just aren't that many good fits for the p10 and for CU... they aren't going to leverage each other-- it is going to be a win/win and each needs the other to maximize success.
     
  17. Mick Ronson

    Mick Ronson Well-Known Member

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    not hosting a BCS bowl in the XII region I think, in hindsight, was a mistake. I was never a huge fan of the Cotton Bowl (or SWC for that matter)....but someone should have been forward looking enough to see that all the other power conferences either host a BCS bowl in their region or have a traditional tie-in (Big Ten/Rose). Sure, factors here are before Jerry's Place no real venue in Dallas (the Cotton Bowl is a dump...homey for the RRS but not a major event type crib) and Cowboy stadium is a relic and warm weather preferences in January. I guess there's Reliant, but who want to go to Houston?
     
  18. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    SLC is a bigger TV market than Kansas City and would rank 5th biggest in the Big 14.
     
  19. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Yep things don't look too good on most fronts for the Big 12, that is why a partnership with the Pac Ten to form a "BigPac" network is the only true option to increase revenues long-term and keep the conference together.

    The Big 12 has the ABC/ESPN deal that airs 18 games each season + the championship game. All the other games get dumped to FSN (which expires after the 2012 season), put on pay-per-view, or are not aired at all.

    Renegotiating that secondary deal as part of a Big 12/Pac 10 network along with non-revenue sports and the carryover basketball games could be the start of something big.

    A combined Big 12/Pac 10 network would deliver nearly 36 million TV sets compared to the Big Ten's 26 million. Going it alone would mean the Pac-10, Big 12, and ACC (who all have similarly sized demographics) would be in the same market tier and further behind the Big Ten and SEC.
     
  20. OKCBuff

    OKCBuff Well-Known Member

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    If nothing happens, I still think the conference will be living on borrowed time. The feeling I get from the old Big Eight schools is that they'd rather just go back to the Big Eight and say "oh well" to the big money and prestige. I'd vote for that in a heartbeat, even if it meant we'd become a CUSA-level team.

    OK, so maybe not, but I miss being in a conference that was enjoyable and fun and perfect for our situation. The Big 12 is only perfect for the South schools.

    I'm still not keen on the Pac-10 move, but it's obvious that things will eventually fall apart in the Big 12. I can't fault us or Missouri for looking around. I just wish the North Division could defect and add six teams just to have control of things. Yeah, there'd be no power or money, but I don't care. Just take the best six of the MWC and Boise and go to town. With CU, KU, Mizzou and NU leading that league. I think it could be a BCS conference: Iowa State, Mizzou, Kansas, Kansas State, Nebraska, Colorado, Air Force, CSU, UNM, Boise State, BYU and Utah. (My goal there would be keeping most of the Big Eight together -- its true that the Oklahoma schools have turned on us -- while grabbing the best names of western schools not in the Pac-10. It could work.)

    Actually, that'd probably be a pretty decent league for football. KU would own it forever in hoops but that would be OK.
     
  21. OKCBuff

    OKCBuff Well-Known Member

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    I think the Cotton will be in the next round of the BCS. Jones is too powerful and that stadium is TOO AMAZING to not get it into the rotation. I think that will happen and the Fiesta will have to start taking MWC teams all the time (which is OK because I think they deserve an auto bid as that conference stands now).
     
  22. Sexton Hardcastle

    Sexton Hardcastle Club Member Club Member

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    Well done Scotty. Let us know when you post more articles.
     
  23. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    Adding another Texas school would do nothing to strengthen the conference. They'd be better off adding Tulane or Memphis. The conference is already dominated by Texas. Adding more Texas schools would do nothing other than turn the conferenct into a new and not-so-improved version of the SWC. We all know how that story ended.
     
  24. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    That conference might get Mick Ronson's support too!

    Call it a Lewis & Clark Conference or something like that. lol

    Recruiting would be tough in that league, as then Colorado might actually be the "hotbed" state in that conference. It sounds great in a nostalgic view and just to buck the trends of the big money TV deals.

    Part of me thinks that Texas is just posturing with the Big Ten so that they can eliminate Missouri as a candidate and try to keep the status quo of the Big 12 in effect. Kansas, Missouri, and Iowa State have all gone on record as supporting change to an equal revenue sharing model and a Big 12 TV network, but the big 4 schools keep overruling a change like that.

    If Texas did leave by themselves, and we replaced them with say TCU, the balance of power between the North/South would certainly be more even. The drop in TV money would be fairly large, but by retaining A&M (Houston) and grabbing TCU we would still hold a strong presence in Texas. If the Longhorns struggled in the Big Ten, then the Big 12 could chip away at their market dominance in the state of Texas.
     
  25. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Thank you sir!

    I don't post too many articles, rather taking my time to develop something more than a "rant", but I'll be glad to share them when I do. This off-season promises to be rich with subject matter!
     
  26. OKCBuff

    OKCBuff Well-Known Member

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    Oh I know that conference likely wouldn't be a great idea in the long run, but it's just an outside-the-box thought if things got so bad for the North schools in this league. I'd be willing to sacrifice some to get a conference that makes more sense to us. With CU as a bridge to the old Big 12 North teams and to the MWC teams I listed above, it could work geographically -- though your points above are well-taken and I did think about that earlier. In short, there just aren't a lot of options for us and if the Pac-10 deal didn't happen I'd be all about defecting with our North brothers and starting over. But that couldn't happen until Mizzou knew for sure it was stuck in the Big 12, so it would have to wait until after the Big 10 made its moves.

    I still can't get over the feeling that what's going on now is the start of a move to 14- and/or 16-team conferences. I think this stuff is a pre-emptive strike against the MWC and any others that could mount an argument for inclusion into the BCS auto-bid world. Ultimately that would mean more money for the power conferences, which would offset any losses by having to share more of the pie in a given league. And I think the Big 12 will be used for spare parts to get the Big 10, SEC and Pac-10 to that 14/16 level. There are just too many teams (I count nine) that could work in any of those three leagues.

    I've come to the realization that the Big 12 is likely doomed no matter what, so we might a well get going before the league collapses and we're stuck as a big fish in a small pond (MWC).
     
  27. Razorbuff

    Razorbuff Member

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    This seems to be a pretty accurate statement. The Big 12 has, in my opinion been hurt by two things.

    (1) The domination of the conference by TX. Just look at the TV deals and $$, the Big 12 outside of TX and OU doesn't have it. TX dominates the conference just like they did in the old SWC. That is a major issue with the revenue distribution, instead of strengthening all the schools equally, TX and OU take the majority of it. TX gets stronger, but at what cost to the other programs in the conference? TX only cares about itself, and if the rest of the conference is weaker as a result, they don't care. When TX politics get involved as well it is just a huge mess.

    (2) The downfall of the North. When the Big 12 was formed the North was solid. CU had been excellent for years and was a Top 10 program, as was Nebraska (who had arguably one of the greatest runs in college football history from the 1990s-early 2000s). Those were the big two in the North, but for a variety of reasons, both schools are down from what they once were. Factor in KSU who had success under Snyder in the late 1990s because of their use of jucos... and now look at them, everyone recruits jucos... they were never a historically good program, and had a brief flash of success. Now Iowa State... hardly any football history... 2 Missouri Valley Conference championships in 1911 and 1912, and one Big 12 North Title in 2004 while going 7-5 on the season... I don't know if that is a tribute to how good Iowa State was as opposed to the mediocrity of the North. Look at KU now, a basketball school, and they had brief success under Mangino, but historically nothing in football. Same with Mizzou, their last conference championship came in 1969 when they were Big 8 co-champions... all time winning percentage is .541, also not a powerhouse school at all. When you step back and look at it, the North is CU and NU, and neither team is what they were even a decade ago.
     
  28. Hugegroove

    Hugegroove Club Member Club Member

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    Gotta go with Sacky on this one. The entire state of Texas has had far more influence on the B12 than any of us could have imagined. And see where it’s gotten us?
    Beebe at some point has to at least make public that they are working on or finalizing some sort of plan that addresses the obvious problems and give a general overview of what they intend to do in the future. If he keeps everything under wraps, it will appear (on the surface) that he has no plan and is inept or out of touch.
    I think KU & MU playing their rivalry in KC is an example of what other teams could do in terms of boosting revenue. CU & ebraska at Mile High, OU & OSU at Oklahoma City, KU & KsJuco at KC, Big 12 Championship game in the house that Jerry built. You get the picture.
    Good read ScottyBuff!
     
  29. leftybuff

    leftybuff Iconoclast Club Member

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    I agree also. Texas is all about TX and they could care less. They will not change and share revenue. That attitude will kill the B12 the same wya the cheating killed the SWC. Only two SWC teams were never sanctioned. Arky and Rice. Arky left and the SWC collapsed. UT will keep waving it's ten gallon hat at everybody and calling the shots until everyone has left the room and they'll wonder what happened. CU might as well get out now....while they have a place to land.
     
  30. Razorbuff

    Razorbuff Member

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    This is dead on. The cheating in the old SWC was absolutely absurd, it was essentially TX thumbing their nose at everyone... we left and the SWC collapsed, thusly TX enters the Big 12 and within a few years they are dominating in the same way. As long as TX dominates the conference, nobody will be better off, TX will continue to make sure the conference rules and regulations, as well as things like revenue sharing, are skewed its way. Best for CU to get out and head to the PAC 10
     

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