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Offense and WR's: Overrated?

Bliff Cranch said:
Maybe. Having a least the threat of production out of the TE just adds another thing for opposing defenses to worry about. Even us amateurs know what will happen when Eddy Lopez lines up as a TE.
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That's how Chris Hill ends up catching a TD pass last season, too. I believe we have TEs who will run the right route and catch the ball when the defense ignores them. I don't know that we've got a TE our QBs should look for and choose to throw to when he's pretty well covered and the other option is to throw to one of our WRs who is pretty well covered on the play. TEs you want to throw a 50/50 or 60/40 ball to are not easy to find.
 
It would seem that the majority of teams no longer feature a TE. Been watching a lot of replays from last year and the featured TE seems to be an exception rather than the rule.
 
There were times last year when I really scratched my head at the play calling. I don't know what the plan is this year but I assume Lindgren will be calling the plays from the booth. I want to see more imagination.in our offensive play calling. They showed it from time to time and maybe I'm being overly critical due to long term memory loss.
 
DBT said:
There were times last year when I really scratched my head at the play calling. I don't know what the plan is this year but I assume Lindgren will be calling the plays from the booth. I want to see more imagination.in our offensive play calling. They showed it from time to time and maybe I'm being overly critical due to long term memory loss.
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It's tough to know, right? There's definitely something to sticking with what you want to do even if it's being stopped. Alabama is the perfect example of that philosophy and Saban often had to brow beat that into Kiffin. Nobody likes seeing basic run plays getting stuffed multiple times in textbook running situations. Sometimes there's a purpose to that, though, even when it's not working. Sometimes it's bad play calling. As a fan, I'm not sure I usually know the difference.
 
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Shay is the same size as John Ross and will run in the 4.4s. He will get drafted as long as he stays healthy and has a decently productive year in what should be a high profile offense. I also think Ross could impress at the combine with his speed. Obviously Bobo and Winfree (if he decides to turn pro) will have a lot to prove on the field and at the combine, but I'd expect them both to get invitations.
 
TSchekler said:
Shay is the same size as John Ross and will run in the 4.4s. He will get drafted as long as he stays healthy and has a decently productive year in what should be a high profile offense. I also think Ross could impress at the combine with his speed. Obviously Bobo and Winfree (if he decides to turn pro) will have a lot to prove on the field and at the combine, but I'd expect them both to get invitations.
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Remember when people were worried about Chido's and Ahkello's speed before the combine this year and then they both ran 4.4's? The criticism of the WR's in big games as the sole reason we struggled in weird when there were clearly more glaring issues. Even JMac was getting open against UW but was not able to make catches.
 
I feel like Shay doesn't get enough respect, largely because of who he followed up, I don't know if he's an NFL guy but he came in to replace P-Rich and succeed Spruce and that's exactly what he's done, he's been the consistent deep threat despite very little faith in the long ball in our offense and finished 2nd, 2nd, and then 1st in receiving yards without a redshirt year. I've seen the opinion more than once that he isn't even a top 3 WR on the team, but that's just absurd, the stats don't lie; Winfree, Bobo, Ento all have a lot more to prove.

I don't think Shay was totally at fault for a lot of his disappearances, USC/UCLA/UW/OKST, our QBs had no time to throw and they were completely off their game. It makes sense a deep threat is going to be at an even bigger disadvantage in that scenario. I don't see how you can judge our WR play from those games where our primary target was the ground, the other team, and Lindsay after running backwards for 20 yards (except Bobo was great against USC). I watched Shay a lot against OKST during the game and he wasn't getting dominated, Sefo just wouldn't test him, and Montez threw an INT 10 yards in front of him when he'd beat his man.

Sure, he doesn't produce as much as I think he's capable of, especially with his NFL aspirations, and part of me wonders why he didn't seem to hit the weight room more. I think he's still capable of reaching that level this season though, especially with the riskier Montez behind center (hopefully an improved/smarter Montez too).
 
I think he'll get drafted at some point, no idea on the round. He has a big year, no telling. I think he'll always be a third wr for the most part. Maybe be in the return game. End of the day, you're in the NFL, who cares what round. If he exceeds expectations in the league, he'll get paid handsomely.
 
Saying WRs disappear in big games is generally laughable. It's arguably the most dependent position on the either side of the ball, and there are very few guys that are good enough to overcome sub par QB play.
 
TSchekler said:
Do you disagree or are you just being you?
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I'd like to see some support for the "laughable" comment since it's such a strong one. Your other points are statements of the obvious, and don't really support anything - unless you are really arguing WR play isn't relevant to WR play. Not much to argue with there.
 
TSchekler said:
Saying WRs disappear in big games is generally laughable. It's arguably the most dependent position on the either side of the ball, and there are very few guys that are good enough to overcome sub par QB play.
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Fields is a solid Pac12 guy.

Fields is not a 2nd round draft pick based on his JR year play. He is not as talented as Ross or PRich, both very similar players. He's the least physical and least willing blocker of the group. He doesn't excel at catching balls in traffic, especially under the safeties.

He has caught a lot of deep balls where he got behind the DB. Sefo excelled on that throw by the way. Some of those were blown coverages (Oregon State stands out, as does CSU) where it was less about the play Fields made and more about the defense being utterly confused.

Scouts are going to evaluate him on his abilities to do the same thing at the next level. Did he benefit from the scheme and poor defense or does he have some sort of knack of flat out beating guys deep?

John Ross was a return freak and clearly has a bit more elusiveness than Fields. In a direct comparison of the two (so far), Ross is clearly a step above.
 
Darth Snow said:
I'd like to see some support for the "laughable" comment since it's such a strong one. Your other points are statements of the obvious, and don't really support anything - unless you are really arguing WR play isn't relevant to WR play. Not much to argue with there.
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It's fairly common knowledge that WR is a highly dependent position, and if a QB/OL struggle, the receivers are going to struggle. It wasn't just a coincidence that our WRs weren't great during three of our four losses last year, all in games where USC, UW and Okie State dominated up front and put a ton a pressure on our QBs. To put the blame solely on them rather than the player/s that throw the ball and the players that protect the thrower is... laughable. Now, do you have any takes of your own on the subject (or any subject for that matter), or are you just going to keep trolling like you do DBT in the politics forum. Seriously, please provide some original thoughts.
 
Mr. Sheckler, I gave my thoughts up near the top of this thread, and you apparently haven't read them. And you are arguing against something I haven't said: that WR performance in big games is entirely due to the WR. Basically going off the deep end on your own. So I'm not sure if you are having cognitive issues or what, but maybe you should take a deep breath, relax, and realize that it's ok not to think just like you do. You've said some outlandish stuff this preseason, and you probably need to chill.
 
Darth Snow said:
Mr. Sheckler, I gave my thoughts up near the top of this thread, and you apparently haven't read them. And you are arguing against something I haven't said: that WR performance in big games is entirely due to the WR. Basically going off the deep end on your own. So I'm not sure if you are having cognitive issues or what, but maybe you should take a deep breath, relax, and realize that it's ok not to think just like you do. You've said some outlandish stuff this preseason, and you probably need to chill.
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First of all, the bolded above is also laughable, coming from you.

Second, I did read your comment from yesterday, and wasn't even responding directly to you, but more just a general response to the topic at hand. However, the bolded below pretty much sounds like you're putting the onus on the WR group. I agree that Shay is not that elite #1 WR, and I never say he was a first or second round pick. I simply made a statement that I believe to be true.

Also, I'd love to know what kind of "outlandish stuff" I've said this preseason that leads you to tell me I need to chill.

Darth Snow said:
They are overrated because they don't have a proven real elite #1 WR. Lots of good pieces.

Before anyone jumps on me, yes, Fields is damn good - but he hasn't been great in big games, and due to injury or something else, the WR corp wasn't awesome down the stretch last year and struggled to get open against elite defenses aside from 1 quarter against Michigan. USC, UW, not much there. IIRC they did ok against Utah.

What I'm saying is that they are a really good corp with a lot of depth, but that to be a top 5 unit, there has to be some real cream there. Is Fields a first round draft pick, or even a 2d round pick?
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Yes, I put the onus for WR performance on the WR group. Feel free to argue otherwise, but that's just another one of your seamless moments.
 
@TSchekler & @Darth Snow getting into it. Who has the popcorn?

I will say I agree that WR production is dependent on QB play as well as play calling and overall talent. P-Rich played with a developing Spruce and NO ONE else. Spruce played with a developing Fields and NO ONE ELSE. Fields last year may have had 85 catches and 1000 yards if it weren't for having many other options to spread the ball to. This year may be no different but I think we may see more passes thrown. Shay is a better player than Spruce. Bobo already rates high for NFL WR over Ross and Fields because he's got NFL size. All are going to have to eat pride because on a team like this there will be a lot more talent than last year to share PT with.
 
DiggerBuffs said:
@TSchekler & @Darth Snow getting into it. Who has the popcorn?

I will say I agree that WR production is dependent on QB play as well as play calling and overall talent. P-Rich played with a developing Spruce and NO ONE else. Spruce played with a developing Fields and NO ONE ELSE. Fields last year may have had 85 catches and 1000 yards if it weren't for having many other options to spread the ball to. This year may be no different but I think we may see more passes thrown. Shay is a better player than Spruce. Bobo already rates high for NFL WR over Ross and Fields because he's got NFL size. All are going to have to eat pride because on a team like this there will be a lot more talent than last year to share PT with.
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Yeah all of their numbers were up and down and that is a product of having that many weapons.
 
Darth Snow said:
Yes, I put the onus for WR performance on the WR group. Feel free to argue otherwise, but that's just another one of your seamless moments.
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Yeah that first play against USC I totally though to myself, "man the wide receivers needs to do better."
 
Darth Snow said:
Yes, I put the onus for WR performance on the WR group. Feel free to argue otherwise, but that's just another one of your seamless moments.
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So now you're applying a negative connotation to arguing against your opinion? I mean, I already knew that's how you rolled, but glad that it's out in the open. Ahh the irony. Also, nice deflection. Keep being you.
 
TSchekler said:
So now you're applying a negative connotation to arguing against your opinion? I mean, I already knew that's how you rolled, but glad that it's out in the open. Ahh the irony. Also, nice deflection. Keep being you.
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I need a translator again.


(softball lob)
 
Women get emotional during their monthly menstrual cycle. If the cycle just started it could last for 7 days, buckle up folks! Telling a woman to chill may push her buttons even further.
Darth Snow said:
Mr. Sheckler, I gave my thoughts up near the top of this thread, and you apparently haven't read them. And you are arguing against something I haven't said: that WR performance in big games is entirely due to the WR. Basically going off the deep end on your own. So I'm not sure if you are having cognitive issues or what, but maybe you should take a deep breath, relax, and realize that it's ok not to think just like you do. You've said some outlandish stuff this preseason, and you probably need to chill.
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DiggerBuffs said:
@TSchekler & @Darth Snow Shay is a better player than Spruce. Bobo already rates high for NFL WR over Ross and Fields because he's got NFL size. All are going to have to eat pride because on a team like this there will be a lot more talent than last year to share PT with.
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Shay is a better player than Spruce? Now that is a bold statement. I give you that Shay is more athletic than Spruce. However, Spruce was and is an amazing route runner and he wasn't afraid to block. Spruce faced defenses designed to stop him and usually only him, which meant double coverage, being bracketed, being double covered with another man over the top. Shay doesn't get that kind of attention because they can't give him that kind of attention. Because of this I can't say Shay is a better player...in fact, I would say Spruce was a better player despite being less athletic...but Shay isn't done playing.

In my opinion this group of WR's is going to be good. If they can start to prove they can handle press coverage they could become excellent. if Ento and Winfree can really play, this could be an unbelievable year.
 
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CitizenKane said:
Shay is a better player than Spruce? Now that is a bold statement. I give you that Shay is more athletic than Spruce. However, Spruce was and is an amazing route runner and he wasn't afraid to block. Spruce faced defenses designed to stop him and usually only him, which mean double coverage, being bracketed, being double covered with another man over the top. Shay doesn't get that kind of attention because they can't give him that kind of attention. Because of this I can't say Shay is a better player...in fact, I would say Spruce was a better player despite being less athletic...but Shay isn't done playing.

In my opinion this group of WR's is going to be good. If they can start to prove they can handle press coverage they could become excellent. if Ento and Winfree can really play, this could be an unbelievable year.
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Thank you. Both are very different WR, but Shay has to do very well this year to be considered better than Spruuuuuuuuuuuuccccceeeee.
 
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