WSU QB Hilinski dead in apparent suicide

[leftybuff]

Now we could end up with flag football...but I think that is the same thing as football dying.

 

[slider]

Thing is you could ban headers and the game would be nearly the same. Can't ban hitting in football.

Are there any legit stats in soccer players with brain injuries?

 

[BuffLuke80]

As long as the money is there, the game will be there.

 

[patebuff]

Football in general has absolutely dominated the market in the US for a long time from the youth levels to the pro levels. CTE is definitely an issue that will never go away, but those claiming it is driving fans away are way off base. Inevitably, the numbers were going to start dropping at some point.

College football goes away, then college sports go away.

 

[8Jah]

Are there any legit stats in soccer players with brain injuries?

Don't know. Sounds like there is much less worry.

 

[patebuff]

Are there any legit stats in soccer players with brain injuries?

This article talks about the US Federation lawsuit in regards to head injuries and strict limits on players using their head at the younger age levels.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/10/...uit-will-limit-headers-for-youth-players.html

 

[MtnBuff]

Research on CTE is ongoing. We don't know how many players get CTE, what types of contact causes CTE nor how much of the regular population has CTE...but those answers will come in the next decade. The data could still go several ways, but if CTE is especially widespread in football players at an early age and is caused by all forcible contacts, then that science will win out eventually. There will be way too much political pressure and liability issues to continue it as a college sport regardless how big a deal football is

I'd hate to see it happen, but if the coming data turns out that way then I'd just have to belly up to it.

Now we could end up with flag football...but I think that is the same thing as football dying.

The research is ongoing and really just getting started.

You mentioned the type of contact. I think we are going to find that CTE is much more common than expected, I also think they will find that it extends way past organized football. As I mentioned I had at least one concussion by age ten, probably more.

It will also be interesting to see how the data moves based on the relatively recent changes in how the game is practiced and played.

Nik has a very good point related to the frequent minor impacts vs. the few big ones. Soccer could end up with a major problem here. They have already taken steps to take headers out of the game for younger players under 15. That still doesn't relieve the other impacts that are part of the game.

As I said earlier there will be changes to the game but there have always been changes to the game. When they outlawed grabbing the facemask there were some who claimed it would be the end of the game

Perhaps the best thing the sport could do is implement rules where all practices are conducted using the 7v7 "helmets" and forcing players to routinely tackle without their heads (rugby style). You then get in the game that style of tackling becomes muscle memory and it actually works. As things are right now, players are being taught this technique, but it's not practiced in live action enough to make a difference on Saturdays/Sundays.

This is probably a lot closer to the future than a lot of other things in this thread. We are probably going to see players going to rugby style tackling with more wrap and drag down rather than try to knock down. Blocking and pass rushing will be done using a lot more hand and arm technique and less body to body impact. We have already seen that as offenses have gone to more wide open diversified passing attacks and away from power rushing systems.

Some have even called for eliminating the hard shell helmet entirely which I could see along with eliminating hard shell pads for the shoulders. If you look at the shoulder pads they used 30 years ago compared to today they have already made huge steps that direction.

 

[8Jah]

The research is ongoing and really just getting started.

You mentioned the type of contact. I think we are going to find that CTE is much more common than expected, I also think they will find that it extends way past organized football. As I mentioned I had at least one concussion by age ten, probably more.

It will also be interesting to see how the data moves based on the relatively recent changes in how the game is practiced and played.

Nik has a very good point related to the frequent minor impacts vs. the few big ones. Soccer could end up with a major problem here. They have already taken steps to take headers out of the game for younger players under 15. That still doesn't relieve the other impacts that are part of the game.

As I said earlier there will be changes to the game but there have always been changes to the game. When they outlawed grabbing the facemask there were some who claimed it would be the end of the game



This is probably a lot closer to the future than a lot of other things in this thread. We are probably going to see players going to rugby style tackling with more wrap and drag down rather than try to knock down. Blocking and pass rushing will be done using a lot more hand and arm technique and less body to body impact. We have already seen that as offenses have gone to more wide open diversified passing attacks and away from power rushing systems.

Some have even called for eliminating the hard shell helmet entirely which I could see along with eliminating hard shell pads for the shoulders. If you look at the shoulder pads they used 30 years ago compared to today they have already made huge steps that direction.

Note that I originally said there is a real chance that it could end football. If the data strongly condemns football then there is trouble. But the data could end up saying other things too. 50/50. But just because there could be other causes of CTE wouldn't let football off the hook if every football player had CTE.

 

[8Jah]

Rugby style tackling would not be enough either way I would think. They would need to reduce the helmet contact and violence in blocking. The line play would be totaly different.

If CTE becomes a bigger deal than it already is probably need more than rugby style tackling. They say it is the linemen who are most exposed to CTE. So you would have to address even incidental helmet contact during line play and reduce the violence of blocking. Maybe all linemen would have to start from a standing position with their palms in opposing contact before the snap. You would then have to get rid of throwing or pushing anyone to the ground...maybe just wrap them up until the whistle blows.

 

[MtnBuff]

Rugby style tackling would not be enough either way I would think. They would need to reduce the helmet contact and violence in blocking. The line play would be totaly different.
R
If CTE becomes a bigger deal than it already is probably need more than rugby style tackling. They say it is the linemen who are most exposed to CTE. So you would have to address even incidental helmet contact during line play and reduce the violence of blocking. Maybe all linemen would have to start from a standing position with their palms in opposing contact before the snap. You would then have to get rid of throwing or pushing anyone to the ground...maybe just wrap them up until the whistle blows.

Rugby style tackling would not be enough either way I would think. They would need to reduce the helmet contact and violence in blocking. The line play would be totaly different.

You are not going to take the risk out of the game and frankly people are fine with accepting the risk. A couple of decades ago the big cry was the football was going to go away because all the knee injuries left everybody crippled for life. We still have knee injuries and we still have football.

CTE is a reality but it is a reality in every sport. Unless you eliminate sport you are going to have the risk of CTE. Things can and will be done to reduce it and as a society we will decide to accept the risk.

We still sell tobacco products, we still serve drinks in bars and restaurants (and sports stadiums,) we still ride motorcycles. Football players and fans will find an acceptable level of risk and the game will go on.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

You are not going to take the risk out of the game and frankly people are fine with accepting the risk. A couple of decades ago the big cry was the football was going to go away because all the knee injuries left everybody crippled for life. We still have knee injuries and we still have football.

CTE is a reality but it is a reality in every sport. Unless you eliminate sport you are going to have the risk of CTE. Things can and will be done to reduce it and as a society we will decide to accept the risk.

We still sell tobacco products, we still serve drinks in bars and restaurants (and sports stadiums,) we still ride motorcycles. Football players and fans will find an acceptable level of risk and the game will go on.

Exactly. There is a huge market for football in this country, and as long as billionaires are willing to pay millions of dollars per year, there will be talented individuals lining up to play, knowing full well what the consequences are.

Look at what almost every player out there says about injuries. They would much rather get a concussion than a knee injury. I get that it’s short sighted thinking, but that’s the mentality of these guys.

 

[hawg1]

Note that I originally said there is a real chance that it could end football. If the data strongly condemns football then there is trouble. But the data could end up saying other things too. 50/50. But just because there could be other causes of CTE wouldn't let football off the hook if every football player had CTE.

What data and research are you talking about?

It seems clear, at least to me, the distinct link between repeated brain trauma and CTE.

 

[MtnBuff]

What data and research are you talking about?

It seems clear, at least to me, the distinct link between repeated brain trauma and CTE.

Don't think there is any question about the link between repeated brain trauma and CTE.

Where the questions come in are in regard to CTE in other sports compared to football. Also what specifically in football is responsible for more of the damage and can that be reduced without significantly altering the game.

An example might be, and this is purely made up just for the sake of discussion, it is not the subject of any specific research I have read about, would be if they were to determine that a significant portion of the damage comes when a players head bounces off the turf after being tackled or being blocked down. Then using these findings could they alter the playing surface giving it more spring or give that would reduce the shock of impact.

I mention that example because I played one time on the surface of Folsom when I was in high school when they still had the artificial turf. In addition to some nasty rug burns I remember that the surface was rock hard, like playing on concrete with one of those commercial office carpets over it. Even landing on top of other guys it hurt.

The new artificial surfaces can be installed with a cushioning layer below the rug. Not soft enough to slow down a runner but can they be made to reduce shock of a head hitting the surface?

One of the things we do as Americans is figure things out if they are important enough for us. The game of football is important enough that they will find a way for it to continue even with the CTE issue looming.

 

[Gramburglar]

Are there any legit stats in soccer players with brain injuries?

I think a decent number of this most recent generation of American players will donate their brains to research. I know Twellmen has, concussions cut his career short. I am not sure of the attitude of the European players on the topic.

This article talks about the US Federation lawsuit in regards to head injuries and strict limits on players using their head at the younger age levels.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/10/...uit-will-limit-headers-for-youth-players.html

Nik has a very good point related to the frequent minor impacts vs. the few big ones. Soccer could end up with a major problem here. They have already taken steps to take headers out of the game for younger players under 15. That still doesn't relieve the other impacts that are part of the game.

I go back and forth on the topic of removing headers from youth programs. At a certain level heading the ball is necessary and a crucial component to the game (like tackling in football). Also, those who have played know sometimes the ball will just hit you in the head no matter what, even if you are not trying to go after the ball, like in hockey.

In order to properly head a ball there are two components, technique and strength. Technique can be taught, however the muscle groups to head the ball are very specific and require years of strengthening to become strong enough safely head the ball. If these muscles are poorly developed a header will certainly lead to injury. I think the fair compromise would be headers should be discouraged from goal kicks at a minimum and if possible to define clearances from the defensive third. But, deft passing headers or from open play (on or away from goal) should remain apart of the youth game.

 

[MtnBuff]

I think a decent number of this most recent generation of American players will donate their brains to research. I know Twellmen has, concussions cut his career short. I am not sure of the attitude of the European players on the topic.





I go back and forth on the topic of removing headers from youth programs. At a certain level heading the ball is necessary and a crucial component to the game (like tackling in football). Also, those who have played know sometimes the ball will just hit you in the head no matter what, even if you are not trying to go after the ball, like in hockey.

In order to properly head a ball there are two components, technique and strength. Technique can be taught, however the muscle groups to head the ball are very specific and require years of strengthening to become strong enough safely head the ball. If these muscles are poorly developed a header will certainly lead to injury. I think the fair compromise would be headers should be discouraged from goal kicks at a minimum and if possible to define clearances from the defensive third. But, deft passing headers or from open play (on or away from goal) should remain apart of the youth game.

Grain of salt, I am not more than an occasional fan of the game and certainly less knowledgeable about it than I could be.

You bring up an interesting point about headers and muscle development.

Taking the header out of the game might be akin to taking kickoffs and punting out of American football. Something seen as an integral part of the game.

Your compromise might be good but I wonder in terms of the US game if we have the qualified coaches at the youth level capable of teaching the correct techniques and when you start getting into conditional rules are the refs at that level ready for another set of complexities.

If the statistics continue to come in linking soccer to CTE I fully expect the header to be out of the youth game entirely. I would also expect that internationally where soccer is more culturally sacred they won't make that alteration to the game so we will have another area where American players fall further behind.

 

[Buffnik]

I think a decent number of this most recent generation of American players will donate their brains to research. I know Twellmen has, concussions cut his career short. I am not sure of the attitude of the European players on the topic.





I go back and forth on the topic of removing headers from youth programs. At a certain level heading the ball is necessary and a crucial component to the game (like tackling in football). Also, those who have played know sometimes the ball will just hit you in the head no matter what, even if you are not trying to go after the ball, like in hockey.

In order to properly head a ball there are two components, technique and strength. Technique can be taught, however the muscle groups to head the ball are very specific and require years of strengthening to become strong enough safely head the ball. If these muscles are poorly developed a header will certainly lead to injury. I think the fair compromise would be headers should be discouraged from goal kicks at a minimum and if possible to define clearances from the defensive third. But, deft passing headers or from open play (on or away from goal) should remain apart of the youth game.

Maybe those muscles you're developing are avoiding a strained neck type injury while making it so that players are more confident and able to head the ball in a way that's more of a violent impact that will cause more brain injury? I don't know. I certainly think it's possible, just as I think that football players being bigger, stronger, faster and better coached has led to more violent collisions and increased brain trauma.

 

[DBT]

What has to happen is a breakthrough in research which leads to the ability to detect lesions. If they do that, they will leap ahead in diagnosis and treatment of CTE.

 

[DrunkRalphie]

We're talking about the Regent who recused herself from the vote on MacIntyre's salary to "get a drink of water" and spearheaded the attack on him and RG while completely supporting an OIEC that was covering its ass after completely failing in its responsibility to train employees of the AD and update their training after rules had changed. Her lapdog and compatriot on the board is Jack Kroll. They represent the single biggest threat to CU's athletic department.

So any evidence or links? Because this comes off as nothing more than conflation of two separate things and paranoia. An abstention in a vote looks negative sure, but you know what would have made an even bigger statement? Voting no.

That evil Jack Kroll that voted in favor of extending Mac's contract? The vote that went eight for and zero against? What stonewalling and resistance.

 

[Not Sure]

I’ve actually heard from a couple folks up at CU that Kroll has had it made clear to him the importance of the football program. He will never be a cheerleader, but I don’t think he will be an obstructionist, either.

 

[DrunkRalphie]

I’ve actually heard from a couple folks up at CU that Kroll has had it made clear to him the importance of the football program. He will never be a cheerleader, but I don’t think he will be an obstructionist, either.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, because there could be more than one Jack Kroll that is associated with the university. But if this is the same man this sure doesn't seem to be a football hater.

Favorite thing about CU Boulder:
Football games (especially seeing Ralphie run) are a great way to wind down from a busy week of work and study

https://www.colorado.edu/jack-kroll

My apologies if this isn't the same person.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, because there could be more than one Jack Kroll that is associated with the university. But if this is the same man this sure doesn't seem to be a football hater.



https://www.colorado.edu/jack-kroll

My apologies if this isn't the same person.

It's the same individual, but you clearly haven't done enough research on what he believes when it comes to the athletic department and football, in particular.

 

[CVBuff]

The game has changed dramatically in regards to speed and size. The rules have not. Steroid use is unquestionably a factor, as is growth hormone, but so are power eating and modern body building science. High school kids are now as big as the starting line for the dynasty 49er and Dallas teams of the 80’s. That means significantly more brain trauma. The majority of trauma is directly related to the velocity of the athlete and immediately stopping with the brain sloshing back and forth. This occurs with tackling, but also with lineman exploding into each other and those bone rattling downfield blocks. No concussion is required for major lifelong repercussions. Rules need to change. Poorer kids will play as long as money is there. More well off kids will not play. This shift is already happening with many of my kids contemporaries. My own grandson is already marked for soccer lacrosse and track at 10 months old.

 

[Not Sure]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, because there could be more than one Jack Kroll that is associated with the university. But if this is the same man this sure doesn't seem to be a football hater.



https://www.colorado.edu/jack-kroll

My apologies if this isn't the same person.

The guy ran in a platform of “we spend too much money on athletics”. And won.

Turns out the money spent on athletics doesn’t come from the general fund. So he kind of got neutered once he actually took office.

 

[Buffnik]

The guy ran in a platform of “we spend too much money on athletics”. And won.

Turns out the money spent on athletics doesn’t come from the general fund. So he kind of got neutered once he actually took office.

At least he seems to have woken to reality when presented with facts. Even if he doesn't like that reality.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

For those of you concerned about the health issues associated with football to the extent that you absolutely will not allow your children to play, do you plan on ceasing your fandom, time spent watching, $$ spent going to games, $$ spent on merchandise, etc on your favorite college/NFL teams?

 

[Buffnik]

For those of you concerned about the health issues associated with football to the extent that you absolutely will not allow your children to play, do you plan on ceasing your fandom, time spent watching, $$ spent going to games, $$ spent on merchandise, etc on your favorite college/NFL teams?

Not the reason my son won't be playing, but even if it was I think we can enjoy entertainment without being hypocrites even if it's not entertainment we'd want for our children. I mean, I watch porn and have gone to strip clubs. I've watched daredevil shows. I enjoy sideshow acts where people drive nails into their faces. I watched Jackass.

Or to put it another way, I don't think the military is a good fit for my son and I would discourage it for that reason and because it is a dangerous occupation. I'd also discourage him to become a crab fisherman or to work on a drilling platform or to get certified to do electrician work on high rise construction. Doesn't mean I don't value and respect the people who do these things.

 

[leftybuff]

For those of you concerned about the health issues associated with football to the extent that you absolutely will not allow your children to play, do you plan on ceasing your fandom, time spent watching, $$ spent going to games, $$ spent on merchandise, etc on your favorite college/NFL teams?

Yes, already have. Having said that, it is a false dichotomy you create. I can be a fan of something I choose not to participate in. But, I am now a lot more interested in the things my kids do, as opposed to the things they don't do.

 

[DrunkRalphie]

For those of you concerned about the health issues associated with football to the extent that you absolutely will not allow your children to play, do you plan on ceasing your fandom, time spent watching, $$ spent going to games, $$ spent on merchandise, etc on your favorite college/NFL teams?

I've almost completely stopped watching the NFL.

Every game I attend at Folsom there is a thought in the back of my mind that I'm a bad person for supporting a sport where so many wind up severe neurological diseases. At last count 48 out of 53 tested college players were positive for CTE. The overall research is still in its infancy, but the early results aren't good. I might stop supporting NCAA football if the game can't be made safer. Might come sooner rather than later.

 

[8Jah]

The guy ran in a platform of “we spend too much money on athletics”. And won.

Turns out the money spent on athletics doesn’t come from the general fund. So he kind of got neutered once he actually took office.

I think as minor elected officials whom the public pays very little attention to, folks like Kroll realize they get a lot of votes just tapping into public sentiments with a statement or two. The notion that we spend too much money on football and that football exploits football players by not paying them, etc... are influential memes on the political left. So I would be surprised if Kroll backs off his rhetoric, even if that rhetoric leads to no action.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

Not the reason my son won't be playing, but even if it was I think we can enjoy entertainment without being hypocrites even if it's not entertainment we'd want for our children. I mean, I watch porn and have gone to strip clubs. I've watched daredevil shows. I enjoy sideshow acts where people drive nails into their faces. I watched Jackass.

Or to put it another way, I don't think the military is a good fit for my son and I would discourage it for that reason and because it is a dangerous occupation. I'd also discourage him to become a crab fisherman or to work on a drilling platform or to get certified to do electrician work on high rise construction. Doesn't mean I don't value and respect the people who do these things.

Your examples in the first paragraph are different and seem to be a justification for continuing your fandom. It's technically illegal to watch porn and go to strip clubs when you're under the age of 18. Your son would have to be a certain age to legally participate in a daredevil show, and would need a certain level of coordination and competency as a human. There is no age restriction on playing football. Saying you wouldn't allow your son to play football, even if that's what he really wanted to do, and then turning around and showing him the sport first hand and the resources, time, etc you put into the sport is hypocritical. "As long as it's not my son" kind of mentality.

The military part is also different. A more apt comparison is whether or not you would cast a vote to send troops to war, but never allow your son to enlist if that's what he wanted to do (which again doesn't really compare because he can't enlist in the military prior to being 18 years old, without your consent).

Yes, already have. Having said that, it is a false dichotomy you create. I can be a fan of something I choose not to participate in. But, I am now a lot more interested in the things my kids do, as opposed to the things they don't do.

If you have truly stopped or limited your time, $$, etc spent on the sport than I commend you and have nothing really to say. With that said, I agree you can be a fan of something you choose not to participate in, but that's not the debate at all. The debate is whether or not you'd be a hypocrite for being a die hard fan of a sport you choose not to let your son participate in. Any way you slice this, it's hypocritical, and any attempt to deny that is simply justifying your own behavior.

I really don't mean this response as an attack on either of you personally, btw. I hope that's not how you took it. I was listening to a conversation the other day about where the line is with the NFL/NCAA football that they'd have to cross to lose your viewership and money. The idea was that NFL players (and college players) have committed some of the worst crimes imaginable (Ray Rice, Joe Mixon, Rae Caruth, Aaron Hernandez, Greg Hardy, Aldon Smith, Riley Cooper, Ray Lewis, OJ Simpson, etc. etc. etc.) and the NFL hasn't always done the "moral" thing by keeping them out of the league, unless the law has done that for them. Have those situations, CTE, rule implementations, anthem policies, NCAA hypocrisy and sanctions (lack of when dealing with high profile programs), etc really deterred viewership or slowed revenues? The sport is bulletproof in this country and I think it's fascinating.