Never assume CU does anything that would make logical sense. In fact, I’d assume the exact opposite and be right more often than not.
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Email Todd Saliman About Transfer Rules
- Thread starter LesGrossman
- Start date
SerenityBuff
Well-Known Member
How many PAC 12 school have a PE major? 3? Maybe 4? It's a BS excuse. I've never worked at or with CU on transfer articulation (outside of my own experience as a transfer student 20 years ago), but there is no reason they can't accept the majority of these credits as general electives toward the overall credit requirement for graduation without assigning CU equivalency.
Per the CU website, the Admissions office does an initial review of the transfer coursework, then the individual schools and colleges review the courses to see if/how courses will apply to the major. All pretty standard stuff. There is nothing in there about not accepting courses that are not a direct equivalent to a CU course. However, this seems to be one of the main sticking points:
That won't change unfortunately without a major policy change, which takes years in higher ed. Nor will the quarter/semester unit conversion that someone else brought up. That's standard for all schools. Four quarter credits will always be 2.66 semester credits. So what else can be done? I don't know what other courses CU is not accepting from athletes outside of PE courses. But based on their own policies, there's no reason why they can't accept other college level courses with a grade of C- or better, regardless of if CU offers a major that that course applies to. Policy also states that each school/college determines the max number of credits that may transfer to CU (usually around 60 or so), as long as the last 45 units are completed in residence at CU. None of these policies should adversely affect athlete transfer students, yet somehow they are. Like I said, it looks like there is plenty of leeway to work within policy while accepting the vast majority of transfer credits, outside the PE thing.
Per the CU website, the Admissions office does an initial review of the transfer coursework, then the individual schools and colleges review the courses to see if/how courses will apply to the major. All pretty standard stuff. There is nothing in there about not accepting courses that are not a direct equivalent to a CU course. However, this seems to be one of the main sticking points:
Coursework Not Accepted for Transfer Credit
- Credits earned in physical education activity courses
That won't change unfortunately without a major policy change, which takes years in higher ed. Nor will the quarter/semester unit conversion that someone else brought up. That's standard for all schools. Four quarter credits will always be 2.66 semester credits. So what else can be done? I don't know what other courses CU is not accepting from athletes outside of PE courses. But based on their own policies, there's no reason why they can't accept other college level courses with a grade of C- or better, regardless of if CU offers a major that that course applies to. Policy also states that each school/college determines the max number of credits that may transfer to CU (usually around 60 or so), as long as the last 45 units are completed in residence at CU. None of these policies should adversely affect athlete transfer students, yet somehow they are. Like I said, it looks like there is plenty of leeway to work within policy while accepting the vast majority of transfer credits, outside the PE thing.
Salimans personal assistant as a
Delegate to his inbox….
Delegate to his inbox….
He’s just trying to find a way to avoid getting fired. Hopefully the next AD makes this case.
You're right, there's nothing in the written policy that stops transfer credits.
But, how that written policy is applied is what matters.
And, we have multiple first hand reports of lots of credits not being accepted.
And no, we're not talking about PE credits.
This is why leadership in the university matters. PD could change how the schools and admissions office are applying the written policy to make it more generous - but instead he supports the narrowest interpretation possible - to the harm of inclusion, diversity, and athletics.
Have you ever had CU refuse to transfer full credit for a physics class that you got a A in at another university? A class that was literally taught by a Nobel Prize winning physicist?
I have.
The interpretation of the transfer credit policy is bull****, and it has been for a very long time.
It didn't matter so much to football back in the day, but it's a major problem today.
SerenityBuff
Well-Known Member
My concern is why these courses aren't being accepted in transfer. You can't apply or interpret policy that doesn't exist. The existing written policy is standard and fairly clear. Now, every transfer articulation department affords their staff some leeway in terms of professional judgement. However, those decisions would need to be justified and explained based on course material, academic level, etc. and may need faculty review. They can't just not accept a course because they don't want to. In fact, there is an appeals process in place for courses that aren't accepted.
I am aware of the issue that courses aren't being accepted for athletes and this is affecting their NCAA PTD requirement. But have we heard why these decisions are being made? And what types of non-PE courses aren't being accepted? Based on CU's policy, as long as it comes from a regionally accredited institution, is at the college level, and with a grade of C- or higher, then it should be accepted for at least elective credit, if not full equivalency. Nothing I've seen in the policy is drastically different from any of the other universities at which I've worked in this field.
Again - it's not the actual written policy, but the application of that policy to real life students in real transfer situations.
You have a number of real life people on this very board who have gone through this process at CU, and had credits not transfer.
Here's the crazy thing: I didn't end up getting my degree from CU. Why? Because another school accepted every single credit I'd earned at both CU and my prior school - no questions, no "let's look at the syllabus and see if it's almost exactly what we offer otherwise we're not going to accept it" bull**** like CU pulled. There were two classes where I had to pull out the school catalog for one or two class descriptions, and... that was it. No syllabus comparisons, no appeals to kangaroo bureaucrats, just - "yep, that works, thanks."
Both schools had essentially the same written policy.
The way it was interpreted was drastically different.
So again - this is something that leadership could change. Instead of little peons questioning and appealing and begging and pleading and getting basically nowhere, the Chancellor could tell them to start finding reasons to accept transfer credits instead of finding reasons to deny them.
Right now, they find reasons to deny.
They make more tuition money that way. They get to act like they're academically superior to all these inferior schools. They get to keep their classes full of white rich kids who can afford to take an extra year to finish college. They get to keep out those football kids who might need to skip a few classes for out of town games.
If PD had any balls or any leadership he could reverse that in a few months. Demand that instead of finding reasons to deny transfer credit, that they start finding reasons to accept it.
It would cost them some tuition money as kids wouldn't need to retake classes where they had already covered 90% of the material. It would mean that they would have to admit that the grad students at <insert state school here> are just as capable of teaching <insert freshmen class here> as the grad students at CU. It would mean that they might end up with a few more less affluent and less white kids. Oh - and it would help the football team too.
But yeah. Go ahead and stick to the written policy and pretend that it can't be interpreted and used in different ways.
this isn't about accepting PE credits or any of the other bull**** phil likes to trot out when he is called out for failing to manage the single largest revenue source for CU sports properly.
we don't have a ****ing pe major. fine. good. great. we also don't have general studies or accept a lot of juco stuff... whatever. it is EASIER, as i understand it, to get a player into CAL than CU. think about that. CAL is on another level academically from CU.
the question as folks have pointed out and as i too have directed at president saliman is: what do our peer institutions do? not what do schools that give phil a chubby thinking about and pretending are our peer schools.
large flagship state universities with similar academic credentials is where to start. then, figure out where our gaps are... there are obvious ones like the transfer thing and less obvious ones, i am sure.
address the ****ing differences, close the ****ing gaps, and bring us into alignment with peer schools.
if you do that, we will be a lot healthier as a program regardless of who is the hc.
remember the recruiting restrictions that the CU administration self-imposed on gb after the so-caled scandal. CU unilaterally cut its own nuts off in a way that totally distanced our efforts from our peer schools.
remember ceal barry self reporting a ****ing training table violation in the football program and people patting her on the back for her honesty and CU getting popped with a violation for something peer institutions would have simply caught, identified and stopped if they were concerned about the violation.
this has become a ****ing hostage situation. the administrators wander around without any ****ing clue on what other PEER schools are doing to support athletics and then are shocked when their ignorance creates a failure of epic proportions.
go ahead and go after rick george... he probably has it coming but remember this: if the ****ers up the food chain like phil can toss rg under the bus and blame it on bad management at the CUAD level then they avoid the culpability for their own incredible failures.
scapegoating is an academic administrator go-to -- avoiding accountability is a sport to them.
make it stop. regents, and president saliman need to hear from us.
we don't have a ****ing pe major. fine. good. great. we also don't have general studies or accept a lot of juco stuff... whatever. it is EASIER, as i understand it, to get a player into CAL than CU. think about that. CAL is on another level academically from CU.
the question as folks have pointed out and as i too have directed at president saliman is: what do our peer institutions do? not what do schools that give phil a chubby thinking about and pretending are our peer schools.
large flagship state universities with similar academic credentials is where to start. then, figure out where our gaps are... there are obvious ones like the transfer thing and less obvious ones, i am sure.
address the ****ing differences, close the ****ing gaps, and bring us into alignment with peer schools.
if you do that, we will be a lot healthier as a program regardless of who is the hc.
remember the recruiting restrictions that the CU administration self-imposed on gb after the so-caled scandal. CU unilaterally cut its own nuts off in a way that totally distanced our efforts from our peer schools.
remember ceal barry self reporting a ****ing training table violation in the football program and people patting her on the back for her honesty and CU getting popped with a violation for something peer institutions would have simply caught, identified and stopped if they were concerned about the violation.
this has become a ****ing hostage situation. the administrators wander around without any ****ing clue on what other PEER schools are doing to support athletics and then are shocked when their ignorance creates a failure of epic proportions.
go ahead and go after rick george... he probably has it coming but remember this: if the ****ers up the food chain like phil can toss rg under the bus and blame it on bad management at the CUAD level then they avoid the culpability for their own incredible failures.
scapegoating is an academic administrator go-to -- avoiding accountability is a sport to them.
make it stop. regents, and president saliman need to hear from us.
oh, and while i am ranting, go ahead and ask phil to identify what he believes our peer institutions are. seriously. that will be iiluminating. i don't think even phil is stupid enough to rattle off the ivy league and such. and that is where he will be de-pantsed. as soon as he makes a list which he of course will refuse to do, it should contain washington, oregon, ucla, michigan, wisconsin, and iowa to name a few.
go ahead and compare and contrast specifically with those programs and then tell us all how superior we are to those schools. hint-- we are not.
gawd, this stuff has been infuriating for 2 decades. the only consistent thing has been the presence of phil.
go ahead and compare and contrast specifically with those programs and then tell us all how superior we are to those schools. hint-- we are not.
gawd, this stuff has been infuriating for 2 decades. the only consistent thing has been the presence of phil.
SerenityBuff
Well-Known Member
I think you think I'm arguing with you, but I"m just asking what courses weren't approved for these athletes and why not. Once we know that, then we can direct our specific concerns to Saliman. So far, I haven't heard an explanation. And looking at syllabi and course descriptions is how transfer articulation is done universally. Not sure why you're all pissed off about that.
In terms of interpretation of written policy, there is virtually none. Either the course comes from a regionally accredited institution or it doesn't. Either it's at the collegiate level or it isn't. Either they got a C- or better grade or they didn't.
That's what I want CU to explain. What types of courses aren't being approved and why not? So chill the **** out.
Shockingly, CU moved up from 99 to 97 in the USNWR this year.
You have motivated me to make my voice heard....
Do you think Chancellor DiSteph will understand if I type the letters to RG and President Saliman while showing how old school (and lack the willingness to change) DiSteph is by HANDWRITING his. He would probably think it was cute.
DiSteph:"Oh what a nice alum, he took the time to handwrite a letter to me. Makes me feel like I am back in the old days"
Here it is again DiSteph:
You can not tell tone from a message board post.... unless their are emojis present.... There were no emojis. so methinks that you are arguing with yourself.
I have this image of you being so Serene!
God... grant me the serenity, to accept the things I can not change.
Have to respond as it memory of what my dad ('70 alum) ran into at the Minny game.
We were at the Alumni TG, which of course was a lightly attended affair. It was easy to pick out RG and PD hobnobbing.
Dad found himself in the beer line with PD and said,
"Hey Phil - I'm a '70 alum, and an old guy. Are y'all doing anything out there that makes me want to continue with my season tickets I've had for the last 30 years so I can enjoy a winning season again?"
PD chuckles and says - "Well, you know, I'm old too."
WTF?
Ivy league here we come
Delaware U and Binghamton we're coming for you, biyotches!!!
I doubt a letter writing campaign will have much impact unless, maybe, the letter comes from someone who writes significant checks to the program.
Also, aside from transfer rules, I thought the issue was the ability to enroll kids that don’t meet the enrollment standards. I thought THAT was the big issue that the previous guy had.
A letter should be fact based. Also, I think asking questions to which the President would have to respond would be most effective.
For instance, “President Saliman, the University of Michigan has both a highly regarded academic program as well as athletic program. Can you explain why the University of Michigan can successfully enroll transfer athletes that would not be able to enroll at Colorado?”
Of course asking a question like that would have to be backed by facts. So are there documented cases of kids who could not transfer to CU that we’re accepted to another academically respected program? You need facts. Not conjecture.
Also, aside from transfer rules, I thought the issue was the ability to enroll kids that don’t meet the enrollment standards. I thought THAT was the big issue that the previous guy had.
A letter should be fact based. Also, I think asking questions to which the President would have to respond would be most effective.
For instance, “President Saliman, the University of Michigan has both a highly regarded academic program as well as athletic program. Can you explain why the University of Michigan can successfully enroll transfer athletes that would not be able to enroll at Colorado?”
Of course asking a question like that would have to be backed by facts. So are there documented cases of kids who could not transfer to CU that we’re accepted to another academically respected program? You need facts. Not conjecture.
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This is so shortsighted.
Junior college transfers increase access to economically disadvantaged families. Not to make this thread go sideways, but a former nanny transferred to Michigan from Orange Coast Community College. She was also admitted to UCLA and USC.
Presumably, junior college transfers expand a university's alumni base, as each graduate takes 1/2 as many seats in the classroom as does a four-year graduate. I don't have the data, but I would also assume that junior college transfers improve a university's graduation rate, which should improve academic rankings.
Accordingly, the nation's premier public university system, the UC system, is moving in the opposite direction - by favoring admission to junior college transfers over high school seniors.
To be clear, I have no f*cking idea why CU doesn't transfer credits as readily as other schools. I'm just saying that the people who have the power to change it will respond to arguments about diversity and equity (like Hank's above) more than they will respond to calling them elitist douchebags.
My dad said if he'd had his beer, he would've dumped it on him. Good thing he hadn't bought it yet.
JFC
Ivy of the Rockies Foothills.
Really like what you have to say here. I think it’s great to get the message to Saliman but I think we will find he already gets it. This guy is going to really lead CU…. And that includes our football program. I really feel like he’s in our corner.
I feel like that’s good news