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Few key offseason storylines

YngC

Well-Known Member
Buffs obviously have Las Vegas ahead and, with the way they've shown they're capable of playing at times, it isn't *that* outrageous to see them beating ASU. But either way, the season looks likely to end at 16-15 or 17-15. I'm not here to talk about whether or not that's disappointing, but to look forward to the offseason and some storylines/development that I'm most looking forward to following.

1.) Last scholarship available: Obviously we've all heard conflicting reports, but Tory's decision is big for the program next year. It isn't that I don't want him back, more so that I simply think there are better options out there. The emergence of Dallas means you've got an effective starting center in your lineup, but adding a big man through the transfer market feels like the most necessary move for the program. There will be options, and at least one of whom already has high interest in CU, but let's wait until announcements are made before we talk names. Whether or not Strating returns will also be worth following, but Boyle has rarely punished players for his mistaking their ability to play at this level.

2.) McKinley's shot: Kin is the most "instant impact" guy Boyle has recruited, IMO. Spencer was really good, Josh was really good, but Kin had the biggest instant impact out of that group. His ability to get to the basket and find teammates is elite. He's going to be a P12 POY candidate in his career. But his inability to shoot from deep really hurt his productivity at times and led to too many unbalanced lineups. PJC at UA shot 41%, McLaughlin shot 41%, Holiday shot 44%, and Bibbins shot 45%. Having a PG who can hit from deep changes the entire make up of an offensive system. Kin shot 29%.

3.) Bey, Walton, Siewert: This is your frontline of the future, all of whom showed flashes of brilliance this year while also being maddening at other times. Bey's improvement must come in decision making. He gets sped up really easily and it often looked like he didn't have a move he trusted besides pump faking an elbow jumper (that defenses inconsistently went for). He won't be a back to the basket guy, which is fine, but adding 10lbs of muscle to his frame would be huge. Walton just feels like house money doesn't he? For him, rebounding is his biggest weakness that needs work and it will likely come from a stronger base and more understanding of defensive positioning. Siewert...what an interesting year for him. Initially, I thought it was about opportunity--when he played 20 minutes or more, he was great. But it's all about aggressiveness. He hit double figures in scoring 8 of the 10 times he took five or more shots. He's an absolute knockdown shooter when he looks for his own shot. He'll never be a plus defender, so CU really just needs him to play the role of offensive gunner.

4.) Emergence of a SG: By far the most maddening position at CU since Spencer left. Dom, Josh Fortune, Talton...none made enough impact at the spot. Next year, you've really got Namon Wright, D'Shawn schwartz, Lazar, and Del best suited for the role. Namon was great at times this year, but inconsistency and inexcusable mental lapses marred what would have been regarded as a really great debut in Boulder. D'Shawn had a huge learning curve but I think I've seen enough to think he can make a jump this offseason. Lazar has to become a shooter. If he doesn't, he's just not good enough to do anything else. Then, there's Del. I was really hard on Del this year because he was the exact same player as his freshman season (look at his stats, it's creepy). He can't shoot, doesn't handle the ball well, doesn't make plays for others, but he plays very respectable on-ball defense and his recovery on that end is incredible. Add in the freshmen, and I have a hard time seeing where Brown fits in the program moving forward. He's got to be considered as a transfer possibility.

5.) Boyle's adjustments: Tad coached his ass off for 95% of the season. He showed a willingness to be flexible on defense and he turned a freshman point guard loose. He showed more of a "players coach" mentality at times, trusting veterans in spots where they might not have earned it (Washington State). But his teams have won 7 road conference games in four years. My general belief is hat winning on the road is less about mental toughness or any sort of preparation and more about simply being good. When you're better than your opponents, usually you beat them. It's basically how this works. The Buffs have really only had two decent teams the last four years, so their inability to win in conference away from home isn't surprising...but their lack of competitiveness is. In that span, they've lost at Washington State twice, at Oregon State twice, and they've coughed up big leads at USC, Washington, and Utah. Boyle has to get it right this offseason.

Overall, my expectation is for next year (in relation to these storylines) to be a mixed bag. Get more of these developments right than wrong, and you're looking at a team that should be on the NCAAT bubble with a decent to good shot of getting in. Get more wrong than right? And Boyle will basically be looking at a do or die year in 2020, where a significant break through is necessary to keep changes away.
 
The more I think about it, the more I think that next year's team needs to go big and play a 2-3 zone most of the time. Or maybe more of a 3-2.

Siewert is the only reliable 3pt shooter we know we have in 2019. He has to be on the court and gunning.

Bey's got to not only get stronger, but also extend his range. If you can shoot as well as he does from 12-15 feet, you should be able to hit from 20 feet.

I could go on and on, but the basic theme for pretty much every guy who is returning is that he needs to hit the weight room and improve his shooting.
 
The more I think about it, the more I think that next year's team needs to go big and play a 2-3 zone most of the time. Or maybe more of a 3-2.

Siewert is the only reliable 3pt shooter we know we have in 2019. He has to be on the court and gunning.

Bey's got to not only get stronger, but also extend his range. If you can shoot as well as he does from 12-15 feet, you should be able to hit from 20 feet.

I could go on and on, but the basic theme for pretty much every guy who is returning is that he needs to hit the weight room and improve his shooting.
Who got in Tad's ear and talked him into playing some zone?
 
Buffs obviously have Las Vegas ahead and, with the way they've shown they're capable of playing at times, it isn't *that* outrageous to see them beating ASU. But either way, the season looks likely to end at 16-15 or 17-15. I'm not here to talk about whether or not that's disappointing, but to look forward to the offseason and some storylines/development that I'm most looking forward to following.

1.) Last scholarship available: Obviously we've all heard conflicting reports, but Tory's decision is big for the program next year. It isn't that I don't want him back, more so that I simply think there are better options out there. The emergence of Dallas means you've got an effective starting center in your lineup, but adding a big man through the transfer market feels like the most necessary move for the program. There will be options, and at least one of whom already has high interest in CU, but let's wait until announcements are made before we talk names. Whether or not Strating returns will also be worth following, but Boyle has rarely punished players for his mistaking their ability to play at this level.

2.) McKinley's shot: Kin is the most "instant impact" guy Boyle has recruited, IMO. Spencer was really good, Josh was really good, but Kin had the biggest instant impact out of that group. His ability to get to the basket and find teammates is elite. He's going to be a P12 POY candidate in his career. But his inability to shoot from deep really hurt his productivity at times and led to too many unbalanced lineups. PJC at UA shot 41%, McLaughlin shot 41%, Holiday shot 44%, and Bibbins shot 45%. Having a PG who can hit from deep changes the entire make up of an offensive system. Kin shot 29%.

3.) Bey, Walton, Siewert: This is your frontline of the future, all of whom showed flashes of brilliance this year while also being maddening at other times. Bey's improvement must come in decision making. He gets sped up really easily and it often looked like he didn't have a move he trusted besides pump faking an elbow jumper (that defenses inconsistently went for). He won't be a back to the basket guy, which is fine, but adding 10lbs of muscle to his frame would be huge. Walton just feels like house money doesn't he? For him, rebounding is his biggest weakness that needs work and it will likely come from a stronger base and more understanding of defensive positioning. Siewert...what an interesting year for him. Initially, I thought it was about opportunity--when he played 20 minutes or more, he was great. But it's all about aggressiveness. He hit double figures in scoring 8 of the 10 times he took five or more shots. He's an absolute knockdown shooter when he looks for his own shot. He'll never be a plus defender, so CU really just needs him to play the role of offensive gunner.

4.) Emergence of a SG: By far the most maddening position at CU since Spencer left. Dom, Josh Fortune, Talton...none made enough impact at the spot. Next year, you've really got Namon Wright, D'Shawn schwartz, Lazar, and Del best suited for the role. Namon was great at times this year, but inconsistency and inexcusable mental lapses marred what would have been regarded as a really great debut in Boulder. D'Shawn had a huge learning curve but I think I've seen enough to think he can make a jump this offseason. Lazar has to become a shooter. If he doesn't, he's just not good enough to do anything else. Then, there's Del. I was really hard on Del this year because he was the exact same player as his freshman season (look at his stats, it's creepy). He can't shoot, doesn't handle the ball well, doesn't make plays for others, but he plays very respectable on-ball defense and his recovery on that end is incredible. Add in the freshmen, and I have a hard time seeing where Brown fits in the program moving forward. He's got to be considered as a transfer possibility.

5.) Boyle's adjustments: Tad coached his ass off for 95% of the season. He showed a willingness to be flexible on defense and he turned a freshman point guard loose. He showed more of a "players coach" mentality at times, trusting veterans in spots where they might not have earned it (Washington State). But his teams have won 7 road conference games in four years. My general belief is hat winning on the road is less about mental toughness or any sort of preparation and more about simply being good. When you're better than your opponents, usually you beat them. It's basically how this works. The Buffs have really only had two decent teams the last four years, so their inability to win in conference away from home isn't surprising...but their lack of competitiveness is. In that span, they've lost at Washington State twice, at Oregon State twice, and they've coughed up big leads at USC, Washington, and Utah. Boyle has to get it right this offseason.

Overall, my expectation is for next year (in relation to these storylines) to be a mixed bag. Get more of these developments right than wrong, and you're looking at a team that should be on the NCAAT bubble with a decent to good shot of getting in. Get more wrong than right? And Boyle will basically be looking at a do or die year in 2020, where a significant break through is necessary to keep changes away.

One question: what are we looking for from a grad transfer big that Tory doesn't give us? Walton seems to have an offensive upside at least on par with Jelly considering the leap he made this season. Do we need another big to run the offense through?
 
He forgot #6: Battey. Will he play? Ever?

Based on quotes, Tad seems to think so. I assume he's planning for Battey to be available. He's been on the bench most of the season with no visible signs of whatever happened over the break.
 
Based on quotes, Tad seems to think so. I assume he's planning for Battey to be available. He's been on the bench most of the season with no visible signs of whatever happened over the break.
I'm hoping so, but there is a reason he hasn't returned to practice yet. We just don't know what it is, and Tad hasn't said if they have figured that out.
 
Great post, YngC ... lot of things to be optimistic about, some more cautiously than others.

IMO ... #4 is the key. We have straight sucked at SG for way too long now. If we're going to turn the corner in even the slightest way, we've got have someone step up big at the 2 spot. Namon has shown enough to think he can be that guy, but has to be far more consistent. I agree on Brown, he's been on the floor enough to see what he's got, and it just ain't P12 level shooting guard stuff, on the offensive end anyway. It seemed like most of Nikolic's shots were pretty much wide open looks, and dude laid some serious bricks on many of them. But he's got time to develop and I like his basketball IQ. And I love Schwartz's skill level, but he seems more a 3 than a 2, and his sample size from outside is just too small at this point to know.
 
One question: what are we looking for from a grad transfer big that Tory doesn't give us? Walton seems to have an offensive upside at least on par with Jelly considering the leap he made this season. Do we need another big to run the offense through?
Would imagine there will actually be a handful of transfer bigs, whose production far surpasses Tory's. There are big time transfers available every year. That's what we'd be looking at.
 
I'm hoping so, but there is a reason he hasn't returned to practice yet. We just don't know what it is, and Tad hasn't said if they have figured that out.

I hope they are just being extra cautious about him. With the body he developed working off all the extra weight he could be a real plus factor. His power would force opponents to deal with Dallas with a less physical player. He could also be a force on the boards meaning that Dallas wouldn't have to be a big rebound guy. He still needs to get better at it but if Battey is out there grabbing a bunch of them that is less pressure on Dallas.
 
One question: what are we looking for from a grad transfer big that Tory doesn't give us? Walton seems to have an offensive upside at least on par with Jelly considering the leap he made this season. Do we need another big to run the offense through?

I've noticed that this board (in general) overvalues bigs in the college game, by A LOT. Guards win in college basketball unless we're talking about 1-and-done type bigs, which we don't need to worry about at CU. If either Battey or Tory is available next year, we have plenty of size inside, if both are available we have a logjam.

The number one need, if a scholarship should become available, is a capable lead guard (ideally a transfer). Having only one (M. Wright) on a Power 5 team is inexcusable. Namon, Schwartz, Lazar, Del...all these guys have work to do to even become secondary ball handlers.

Bringing in a lower level D-1 grad transfer point guard would be an absolute home run for this team next year (there are always several very good ones available). Look what Bibbins did for Utah this year. And yes, I understand a player as small as Bibbins would be tough to play alongside McKinley, but an average 6'2" ish guard would be absolutely fine alongside McKinley in the lineup and one of the two would be on the floor at all times. M. Wright, Derrick White, Spencer and, to a lesser extent, Ski are the only guys with this ability that Tad has brought into the program. 4 guys in 8 recruiting classes is not enough and next years class looks like more of the same "combo guard" types that don't fit this mold, but we will see.
 
I've noticed that this board (in general) overvalues bigs in the college game, by A LOT. Guards win in college basketball unless we're talking about 1-and-done type bigs, which we don't need to worry about at CU. If either Battey or Tory is available next year, we have plenty of size inside, if both are available we have a logjam.

The number one need, if a scholarship should become available, is a capable lead guard (ideally a transfer). Having only one (M. Wright) on a Power 5 team is inexcusable. Namon, Schwartz, Lazar, Del...all these guys have work to do to even become secondary ball handlers.

Bringing in a lower level D-1 grad transfer point guard would be an absolute home run for this team next year (there are always several very good ones available). Look what Bibbins did for Utah this year. And yes, I understand a player as small as Bibbins would be tough to play alongside McKinley, but an average 6'2" ish guard would be absolutely fine alongside McKinley in the lineup and one of the two would be on the floor at all times. M. Wright, Derrick White, Spencer and, to a lesser extent, Ski are the only guys with this ability that Tad has brought into the program. 4 guys in 8 recruiting classes is not enough and next years class looks like more of the same "combo guard" types that don't fit this mold, but we will see.

Couldn't agree more with this post, been saying the same thing for 2-3 years. We are fine (and potentially quite good) on the big man front. Tad's obsession with swing men is part of the reason we can't take the next step. Outside of a few exceptions, dynamic playmaking guards absolutely drive the game at this level. And yes, I know ... they are hard to find. But perennial league doormat WSU somehow gets them ... think we couldn't have used Flynn, or Iroegbu, or Lacy here?

And we got INSANELY lucky to get Kin ... thankfully Tad jumped on him when he did, but only cuz Indiana didn't have a scholly for him. Imagine this team's prospects without him. It's pretty frightening. He's the only guy on this team that we can trust with the ball, and the only guy who can consistently get to the rim. My guess is we'd have won 10 games at most this year without him ... I'd be interested to see what other people think that number would have been without him.

Bottom line ... guard play is the one conspicuous hole in an otherwise upward-trending program ... and a glaring hole in Tad's recruiting strategy.
 
Where bigs come in is that they allow you to survive an off jump shooting night, allow you to force opponents to a low percentage on 2pt attempts, and allow you to gain opportunities with rebounds and more FT attempts. That's all very helpful to winning. The best teams have great bigs and depth in the front court. But you can be a good college basketball team if you don't have bigs but have excellent guards. I'm not sure you can be a good college basketball team if you've got excellent bigs but don't have guards.

For instance, I look at Arizona this year. Their front court is the best in the country. If Trier and especially Jackson-Cartwright give them plus shooting, ball handling and perimeter defense in the tournament they have Final Four written all over them. But they're also a team that could go out early because of the inconsistency in the back court if an opponent is hot from 3 and turning them over. Then I can look at a team like Marquette. Pretty much any coach in the nation would kill to have a backcourt of Howard and Rowsey. They're going to win more than they lose. But they're completely out-manned in the paint and that puts a limit on what they can achieve.

I'd say that having at least one playmaker on the perimeter is essential to having a winning team, but a team's ceiling and floor are determined more by its bigs. Size don't slump. (Similar concept to football with being great in the trenches not only sets a baseline but also puts the brass ring into play.)
 
I've noticed that this board (in general) overvalues bigs in the college game, by A LOT. Guards win in college basketball unless we're talking about 1-and-done type bigs, which we don't need to worry about at CU. If either Battey or Tory is available next year, we have plenty of size inside, if both are available we have a logjam.

The number one need, if a scholarship should become available, is a capable lead guard (ideally a transfer). Having only one (M. Wright) on a Power 5 team is inexcusable. Namon, Schwartz, Lazar, Del...all these guys have work to do to even become secondary ball handlers.

Bringing in a lower level D-1 grad transfer point guard would be an absolute home run for this team next year (there are always several very good ones available). Look what Bibbins did for Utah this year. And yes, I understand a player as small as Bibbins would be tough to play alongside McKinley, but an average 6'2" ish guard would be absolutely fine alongside McKinley in the lineup and one of the two would be on the floor at all times. M. Wright, Derrick White, Spencer and, to a lesser extent, Ski are the only guys with this ability that Tad has brought into the program. 4 guys in 8 recruiting classes is not enough and next years class looks like more of the same "combo guard" types that don't fit this mold, but we will see.

To a large extent agree but having a large presence inside can make life easier for your guards and much harder for the opponents.

One of the reasons I am enthusiastic about having a big like Walton is that he is mobile enough and skilled enough to not slow the game down. A lot of bigs on offense are ball stoppers. The occupy their space, the ball goes in and either everything stops while they try to score or the ball comes back out to where it came from.

Walton is unusual for a guy his size in that the ball can go through him quickly to a different player on the floor. He is good at moving the ball to the wings. He is also not stuck on the low post meaning that he doesn't shut that spot off to driving teammates.

Also agree with you about bringing in a true point. Even if he doesn't play a lot beside Kin he would be valuable in keeping the offense moving when Kin gets a breather. There are some teams that the two smalls would be a liability against but it isn't uncommon for teams other teams to be playing two smallish guards at a time or to be playing a bigger guard that is not a big offensive threat.
 
Where bigs come in is that they allow you to survive an off jump shooting night, allow you to force opponents to a low percentage on 2pt attempts, and allow you to gain opportunities with rebounds and more FT attempts. That's all very helpful to winning. The best teams have great bigs and depth in the front court. But you can be a good college basketball team if you don't have bigs but have excellent guards. I'm not sure you can be a good college basketball team if you've got excellent bigs but don't have guards.

For instance, I look at Arizona this year. Their front court is the best in the country. If Trier and especially Jackson-Cartwright give them plus shooting, ball handling and perimeter defense in the tournament they have Final Four written all over them. But they're also a team that could go out early because of the inconsistency in the back court if an opponent is hot from 3 and turning them over. Then I can look at a team like Marquette. Pretty much any coach in the nation would kill to have a backcourt of Howard and Rowsey. They're going to win more than they lose. But they're completely out-manned in the paint and that puts a limit on what they can achieve.

I'd say that having at least one playmaker on the perimeter is essential to having a winning team, but a team's ceiling and floor are determined more by its bigs. Size don't slump. (Similar concept to football with being great in the trenches not only sets a baseline but also puts the brass ring into play.)

Perfectly said. A dominant big (ie Ayton) can bring you from good to great in a heartbeat. I made the point I did for two reasons. 1) Our depth in the frontcourt looks as good as ever under Tad (assuming we add Tory or E. Battey into the mix) and a player like Ayton isn't walking through our doors in the next couple years. 2) Competent ball handling has been lacking under Tad and can provide the biggest (realistic) boost to wins going into next season. Totally agree that, in general, bigs can cover up a lot of weakness.

To a large extent agree but having a large presence inside can make life easier for your guards and much harder for the opponents.

One of the reasons I am enthusiastic about having a big like Walton is that he is mobile enough and skilled enough to not slow the game down. A lot of bigs on offense are ball stoppers. The occupy their space, the ball goes in and either everything stops while they try to score or the ball comes back out to where it came from.

Walton is unusual for a guy his size in that the ball can go through him quickly to a different player on the floor. He is good at moving the ball to the wings. He is also not stuck on the low post meaning that he doesn't shut that spot off to driving teammates.

Also agree with you about bringing in a true point. Even if he doesn't play a lot beside Kin he would be valuable in keeping the offense moving when Kin gets a breather. There are some teams that the two smalls would be a liability against but it isn't uncommon for teams other teams to be playing two smallish guards at a time or to be playing a bigger guard that is not a big offensive threat.

I may not have made my initial point as perfectly as I could have. I think Walton is fantastic. I would argue that after McKinley, his play provided the biggest bump to the win column. He has the opportunity to be very special going forward. It's because of his potential, that of Bey, and the emergence of Siewert in the 2nd half of the season that leaves me comfortable with the frontcourt next year (hopefully with a boost from Battey). I think adding another plus lead guard to the mix makes the team very dangerous next year.

On a related note, my guess would be that if Battey is expected to be healthly (not sure how big an "if" this is), Tory will be encouraged to move on if he's hoping for more than rotational work with the Buffs.
 
Perfectly said. A dominant big (ie Ayton) can bring you from good to great in a heartbeat. I made the point I did for two reasons. 1) Our depth in the frontcourt looks as good as ever under Tad (assuming we add Tory or E. Battey into the mix) and a player like Ayton isn't walking through our doors in the next couple years. 2) Competent ball handling has been lacking under Tad and can provide the biggest (realistic) boost to wins going into next season. Totally agree that, in general, bigs can cover up a lot of weakness.



I may not have made my initial point as perfectly as I could have. I think Walton is fantastic. I would argue that after McKinley, his play provided the biggest bump to the win column. He has the opportunity to be very special going forward. It's because of his potential, that of Bey, and the emergence of Siewert in the 2nd half of the season that leaves me comfortable with the frontcourt next year (hopefully with a boost from Battey). I think adding another plus lead guard to the mix makes the team very dangerous next year.

On a related note, my guess would be that if Battey is expected to be healthly (not sure how big an "if" this is), Tory will be encouraged to move on if he's hoping for more than rotational work with the Buffs.

I don't see Tad as the kind of coach who would push a guy out but yes with the Walton, Bey, Siewert coming back and add a healthy Battey there isn't going to be much time left in the frontcourt for Tory.

Add to those guys a couple of maybes that could give more options in the frontcourt. If Strating is back and he is able to bulk up and make the transition to NCAA basketball he could get some minutes. Don't expect this but it could happen.

The other potential is that Schwartz is still very young and has a solid frame. He is already as big as a lot of P5 forwards but if he grows another inch or two and adds another 10+ lbs he could be a guy who creates mismatches as a front court player. He hasn't shied away from being physical when asked.
 
Whoever says bigs are overrated in today's college game missed the finals of the Pac-12 tourney, where Arizona's bigs KILLED Arizona State. It was a mauling.

I know Arizona has Ayton, and he's phenomenal, but Arizona was waaaay more effective when he played next to Ristic, another 7 footer. I think to beat elite teams, we'll need to have more size up front.
 
North Dakota has a player in #0 Geno Crandall. He just finished his junior season and is an absolute stud. Plays point but is a combo. Best part is he’s 6’4” and played high school aau with McKinley Wright. Geno had the first 40 point game of the 2017-18 season for D-1 in a tournament in Hawaii. He fits the mold perfectly and is possibly graduating this semester.
http://m.espn.com/ncb/playergamelog?playerId=3153373
 


Big news. I have mixed feelings about this. Tory Miller-Stewart is a wonderful teammate. Seems like best for both parties, though.

"After careful consultation with Tory and his family, it was collectively determined to be in his best interest both academically and athletically, to look at other graduate options," Boyle said.
 
I have to admit I am disappointed to see Tory depart the program. No, he wasn't a perfect player, but he was a player that slowly improved over time. I had hoped to see him next year as part of a killer big man rotation (Bey, Siewert, Walton, Battey and Miller would have provided length, power, shooting, hustle and depth). That being said, I understand why Tory would leave. Bey and Walton are going to be better next year and I imagine both will start. If Battey is half as good as advertised and Siewert keeps playing like he did at the end of this year...well there may not be a ton of time for someone at the post. I wish Tory the best of luck moving forward.

After watching what happened to this team when Wright went down, I hope Tad finds another point guard so that the Buffs aren't so dependent on one player.
 
Whoever says bigs are overrated in today's college game missed the finals of the Pac-12 tourney, where Arizona's bigs KILLED Arizona State. It was a mauling.

I know Arizona has Ayton, and he's phenomenal, but Arizona was waaaay more effective when he played next to Ristic, another 7 footer. I think to beat elite teams, we'll need to have more size up front.

Ristic murdered us in the Pac12 tourney, and I'll add that foul trouble for Ayton in that game illustrated that depth anywhere is always extremely important in basketball.
 
Definitely need another PG, and hopefully starting leaves and we can get another BiG.
If no Battey, definitely need another big. Imagine if Battey didn't come back, then Walton had to miss any time. Who's in the frontcourt then, Siewert, Bey, and ???
 
If no Battey, definitely need another big. Imagine if Battey didn't come back, then Walton had to miss any time. Who's in the frontcourt then, Siewert, Bey, and ???

I imagine it would fall on Nikolic to guard bigs in that situation. But it would really be a four guard lineup, or 5 since Bey is listed as a guard too.
 
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