Very surprisingly it is USC, Stanford, and WSU.
https://www.midmajormadness.com/201...ics-college-basketball-2016-gonzaga-mid-major
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Tad has to go
- Thread starter Buffs99
- Start date
Very surprisingly it is USC, Stanford, and WSU.
https://www.midmajormadness.com/201...ics-college-basketball-2016-gonzaga-mid-major
Yes, holy ****.
This is why the bball forum is insufferable for some on the board. I view this point in Tad's tenure the same way I viewed Mike MacItyre's on the football side. He came in and did well, with occasional highs, but he doesn't appear to be the guy to take the program to the next level. That doesn't seem to be a real extreme opinion, but in return I get "You spout bull****, prepare to be burned, you're stupid, Holy ****...etc".
Maybe we can just talk about how you guys think we can stop losing to the Hawaiis, Ind St, and USDs of the world.
Not sure I agree. let's look at data.
if you look at total regular season performance, conference regular season performance, conference tourney performance and post-season performance, the last four years are starkly less impressive than the Boyle's first four years.
first four seasons at CU (note 2011 was Boyle's first year and CU's last year in the XII):
- post season tournament each year (3 NCAA, 1 NIT)
- at or above .500 in conference play each year
- 20+ wins each year
- conference tourney final round: 1 championship, 2 semi-finals, 1 quarter finals
last four complete seasons at CU:
- missed post season once, only made NCAA once
- < .500 in conference play for 3/4 seasons
- >= 20 wins only once
- conference tourney final round: 4 quarter-finals
I do think Boyle has done a good job of keeping out of NCAA trouble and a good job of recruiting and coaching players who don't get into legal problems that embarrass the university. I couldn't immediately find information on how well he graduates players, but my perception based on following the team for six years now is that it's not awesome (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
if anyone has ready access to Boyle's recruiting class ranks by year, that would be interesting as well. are we holding steady, rising, falling or bouncing?
| Season | Team | Overall | Conference | Standing | Postseason |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Northern Colorado Bears (Big Sky Conference) (2006–2010) | |||||
| 2006–07 | Northern Colorado | 4–24 | 2–14 | 9th | |
| 2007–08 | Northern Colorado | 13–16 | 6–10 | T–7th | |
| 2008–09 | Northern Colorado | 14–18 | 8–8 | 5th | |
| 2009–10 | Northern Colorado | 25–8 | 12–4 | 2nd | CIT Quarterfinal |
| Northern Colorado: | 56–66 (.459) | 28–36 (.438) | |||
| Colorado Buffaloes (Big 12 Conference) (2010–2011) | |||||
| 2010–11 | Colorado | 24–14 | 8–8 | T–5th | NIT Semifinal |
| Colorado Buffaloes (Pac-12 Conference) (2011–present) | |||||
| 2011–12 | Colorado | 24–12 | 11–7 | T–5th | NCAA Division I Round of 32 |
| 2012–13 | Colorado | 21–12 | 10–8 | 5th | NCAA Division I Round of 64 |
| 2013–14 | Colorado | 23–12 | 10–8 | T–3rd | NCAA Division I Round of 64 |
| 2014–15 | Colorado | 16–18 | 7–11 | T–8th | CBI Quarterfinal |
| 2015–16 | Colorado | 22–12 | 10–8 | 5th | NCAA Division I Round of 64 |
| 2016–17 | Colorado | 19–15 | 8–10 | 7th | NIT First Round |
| 2017–18 | Colorado | 17–15 | 8–10 | T–8th | |
| 2018–19 | Colorado | 8–3 | 0–0 | ||
| Colorado: | 174–113 (.606) | 72–70 (.507) |
wiki link
How hard is it to just admit you didn't know what you were saying?
They're certainly kicking the **** out of us on a regular basis.
YngC
Well-Known Member
Stop being disingenuous. You came in here spouting bull**** and got called on it.
Step 1: Say programs spending 1/2 of CU are making tournament runs consistently without evidence.
Step 2: When asked for evidence provide list of schools that immediately and thoroughly gets proven wrong.
Step 3: Not know how many tournaments Tad has been to at CU while trying to argue about tournament appearances.
Step 4: Get really mad that people aren't taking you seriously.
The thing is that in basketball everyone drops games to mediocre or bad mid-major teams. CU has lost too many this year. I'm certainly not happy about it. I'm even more upset about the multi-year trend of being a horrible team when playing away from Boulder. This road disaster show is the biggest thing that Tad has got to fix. If he can't, then he will lose my support.
for me, not hard. I think my posting record on Allbuffs show that I'm not too proud to admit my own ignorance. and I did back this up with data.
WarBuff
Club Member
There have even been articles (outside of the Colorado footprint) mentioning the fact that CU loses away games far too regularly. It’s a problem that is no secret.
And that's good!
I embellished the half the money, yes. I didn't have time to sit and research the figures. Tante was helpful enough to grab the numbers and it looks like the majority of schools I listed have smaller budgets than CU.
As far how many times Boyle has brought CU to the NCAAs, it looks like you and I were both off by 1. Split the difference. As far as being mad, I'm not. It just seems odd that our program has been stagnant, and is now backsliding, and most people are content with that.
I'm really curious how much college basketball people on this board watch?
Like, if you only watch CU hoops, that's cool. There's nothing wrong with that. Great that you're a Buff fan and you support the team.
But if all you watch is the Buffs and the NCAA tournament, maybe you shouldn't come around here and act like you know everything.
Like, if you only watch CU hoops, that's cool. There's nothing wrong with that. Great that you're a Buff fan and you support the team.
But if all you watch is the Buffs and the NCAA tournament, maybe you shouldn't come around here and act like you know everything.
I'll admit it's hard for me to watch hoops this year. Cu hoops make me mad. Non CU hoops do too cause they show me what we are missing
Admittedly, I do not watch a lot of hoops outside of CU and March Madness. Does that mean I'm not entitled to an opinion on how my school is doing? I certainly don't think I came in here and acted like I know everything. I just asked a question, why do a lot of other smaller schools with smaller budgets find their way to more success than we do?
Honestly, the reactions in here have been bizarre.
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I've watched less college basketball than I usually do this year, partially for the reason you're stating, and partially because I'm devouring everything Nuggets I possibly can. But I'd make a bet I've watched the most WCC basketball of anyone on this board, and it's probably not close.
YngC
Well-Known Member
That wasn't all you said and you know it. Again, you're having this entire discussion in bad faith so it's pretty naive of you to expect people to sit here and engage with you on that level.
And to your second point about being content, this is the biggest issue I have with you and everyone else who engages in these talks when they are too stubborn to admit they're out of their depth. No one, or at least next to no one, is sitting around here defending being content with how things are. I bet everyone in this thread wishes CU spent three million more per year on hoops and held the program to a higher standard. But CU doesn't, so what most people in here understand is that you've got to understand the context within which CU hoops exists.
Hopefully he gets the road issues figured out, but it's also the bizarness of losing CBI games and really not being competitive in the postseason. We are a long way from Carlon and Andre leading the team through the PAC12 tournament. The last few years have been a slog to get through.
Tad's the man! Long Live Tad!!
The problem for Tad with all this is the trendlines. Yes he went to the tourney four times, three were 2011-12 through 2012-14. Since then once. This season starts off with a bunch of wins against nobodies then not shown on your chart are the two road conference losses including one really ugly one.
Tad has earned a fair chance to fix things, I'm not saying that firing him right away is needed. It should not be however a lifetime guaranteed employment for him, he needs to change the direction of the program back towards what he accomplished in his earlier years in Boulder.
YngC
Well-Known Member
I cannot imagine being this simple minded.
dyemeduke
Well-Known Member
Here's what I find insufferable on the board in general - people advocating stances that aren't correct, and refusing to give up when pointed out wrong. When I first joined these boards, I remember Junction handing it to me, and young, douchey me kept arguing back on something so stupid I don't remember. Years later, a less douchey, but still feeling myself quite a bit, kept telling Buffnik that Adonis Ameen Moore should be recruited with the potential for d-line...and that didn't go so hot either. Both times, and many others, I've been flat out wrong, misguided, or whatever. Have your opinion, but stop defending a position that isn't true.
Another thing that I find annoying about sports in general, is when a team starts to do well, and a bunch of people jump on board with minimal knowledge. And then when things regress to the mean, they throw a fit, often unfounded due to their original lack of fandom. I don't recall what all of your posts are like, but you seem like a normal guy...but continuing to push your point is nonsensical... ...the statements about budgets and prestige was just wrong. Are there some programs that outperform CU with less - sure, but it's not the norm.
NOBODY is content here...I'm annoyed, and I've argued with others on these boards last year and probably before that Tad is not the savior I felt they see him as (edit: but he should NOT be fired this year...to be clear on my stance). They know their **** though, so I'm not going to rant at them for having their positions. Maybe instead of thinking everyone else is a know-it-all, consider that perhaps we've been college bball fans for a long time and could have a better overall perspective??? In case that sounds arrogant, I fully grant I'm no bball expert...but I have been a serious fan for a long time...in spite of some moral objections I have.
Thank you.
What I don't think a lot of people get is that most of us hardcore basketball fans bitch a lot about things to do with the program. We just do it mostly through DMs, group texts, personal conversations, etc. rather than doing so publicly.
The reason for that is that those types of talks are within context. We all know that CU doesn't play the games in recruiting with the payments to get visits and signatures. We know that CU doesn't devote even mid-level of what our peer Power 6 programs do for hoops - that even programs like little Gonzaga have a private jet for the hoops program and a recruiting budget to even travel internationally to scout talent. (Also, we don't want to argue with people who don't seem to even know that basketball is a P6, almost a P7 with the AAC, rather than a P5.) We know that the AD leaves Tad on an island instead of doing things to support the program with student outreach, promotions, staffing and budgets. We know that with the resources available, CU's standard finish should be 8th to 10th in the Pac-12.
So our bitching is with all that as an "understood". We complain about the stubborn refusal to mix up the defensive looks. We complain about the stubborn commitment to sign players who come from the CO prep ranks. We complain about the use of timeouts. We complain about the player rotations. We complain about the inability to focus or finish on the road. We complain about the inability to identify or develop shooting guards that can complement the string of great PGs we've had. We complain about an offense that too often devolves into running a weave 25 feet away from the basket without ever attacking north-south during possessions. We complain about the lack of post-season runs. We complain about the reluctance to sign JUCOs and grad transfers. Etc., etc.
But many of you don't see this and I don't blame you for having the mistaken impression that we are just fine with all that. We're not. Where we are is that while recognizing that Tad is out-performing the median reasonable expectations for the CU MBB program, we know that there are areas for improvement that could allow him to take it above what he has been achieving.
Why don't you guys see these type of complaints from us?
Because if we say this stuff we know damn well that it's going to be ammunition for the casual basketball fans who don't have the context. Those same fans who can't wrap their heads around the fact that basketball is different than football and losing on the road to San Diego isn't a bad loss, it's a missed opportunity. That we'll immediately be confronted with "Fire Tad!".
I don't think you meant it this way, but I just read "the posters on Allbuffs who know the most about basketball don't post our real thoughts and opinions because we don't trust the rest of the board". Given the high credibility you, Buffnik, have as a poster here, that message really diminishes the value of Allbuffs.
I didn't think USC and Stanford reported athletic revenues and expenses, but obviously they have data according to this source. It would not surprise me in the least if USC actually has a much bigger budget than reported here. Stanford has a more "don't give a ****" mentality around basketball so that could be accurate.
And I'm not even talking about the shady aspects of how Andy Enfield runs his program.
Or, perhaps, allbuffs diminishes the value of Buffnik.
We have tried. It gets tiresome. The big issue is that most folks on AB don't really care enough to listen to and understand the context, instead only hearing excuses when that stuff is brought up. We mostly have very casual fans who want a bandwagon to jump on during the football offseason and don't want to hear that CU MBB isn't positioned to give a run like Loyola-IL did last year on a semi-regular basis while regularly being one of the top 4 seeds in the Pac-12 tourney and that Tad significantly out-performs the cards he is dealt. So did Ricardo Patton, fwiw.
P.S. I felt that I was talking to a wall on here when I tried to explain the shoe companies and AAU and street agents and direct payments that are part of signing blue chip talent in men's basketball. I still feel, even after the FBI investigation, that most people on here continue to accept just how far the rules get bent in this sport. And that brings up another thing I don't tend to post publicly that I do talk about privately -- I want CU to stop being a white night and to start doing that stuff within the boundaries of, not the rules, but what is standard practice among our peers. We do not do that. That's probably the biggest thing. Find several hundred grand of soft money for the program to get to players on the team and that year's recruits and people will start seeing the results on the court.
YngC
Well-Known Member
What frustrates me is that too many people refuse to have this discussion in good faith, that when they're proven to be wrong on objective issues, they double down or move the goal posts. It doesn't *have* to be this way.
We can say that Boyle has, taking his tenure at large, overachieved at CU given the program's resources and history. We can say that he's shown the ability to overcome those issues and, given that, it's concerning that there aren't enough signs currently showing that such overachievement is getting closer to happening again. We can say that we support him and want him to have the chance to turn around. We can recognize CU's institutional disadvantages and wish they'd be addressed while understand why they probably won't be. We can be frustrated with the recent product while also wanting to hold Boyle accountable.
It isn't that complicated.
We can say that Boyle has, taking his tenure at large, overachieved at CU given the program's resources and history. We can say that he's shown the ability to overcome those issues and, given that, it's concerning that there aren't enough signs currently showing that such overachievement is getting closer to happening again. We can say that we support him and want him to have the chance to turn around. We can recognize CU's institutional disadvantages and wish they'd be addressed while understand why they probably won't be. We can be frustrated with the recent product while also wanting to hold Boyle accountable.
It isn't that complicated.