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Pac-12 expansion is now inevitable

Maybe as important for the PAC12 Presidents and the schools they represent is a common culture along with geography and the money.

CU was always considered by the PAC as a logical candidate because it fits the culture. AAU membership, highly respected academics and research, a solid fit in terms of campus culture. Outside of athletics a lot of CU researchers are networked with other PAC schools.

We joke about ASU academics but in the B12 they would be in the upper half of the conference. We get frustrated at times because the CU administration is not "all in" on athletic success. In that regard we are like most of the other schools in the conference. The worst scandals in the conference have been USC and UCLA with paying some recruits. The PAC hasn't seen a school sell out for athletic success like we have seen with Baylor, with SMU, go full on JUCO like KjSU.

We may look at schools from a football standpoint but the existing members are more likely looking for schools that fit. That is why they took Utah over a BYU school that sold way more tickets and was a bigger TV name. Utah isn't a church school, isn't an athletic factory, and isn't a glorified JC.

SDSU has a long enough history of cheating that even if they made sense financially they may never be considered, UNLV the same. Boise may not make the cut academically either.

Texas would meet all the qualifications but lack the spirit of cooperation, the sense of balance in university mission. Unfortunately if the horns came calling their financial value would probably overcome any hesitation but if a lot of other schools are waiting for the PAC12 invite they might set their sights another direction.
 
If you look at the Mountain and Pacific zones, combined they're about 75 million people. If we have 5 major conferences, dominating a market of 75 million is very competitive with splitting 240 million people 4 ways. It's even competitive with those 240 million split 3 ways.

Except much of the 240 million live for CFB. Out west, we have active lives and varied interests, good weather, powder....lives. ( Well except many posters on this site).

We have better demographics perhaps but it's easy to sell worthless crap to SEC fans. Plus, we skip the commercials. We know how to use the DVR.

Most of us live nowhere near where we were born. We don't have a lifetime of hatred for our division mates.

SEC fans are basically the average Bronco fan. Spending 20℅ of his income on football viewing.
 
Maybe as important for the PAC12 Presidents and the schools they represent is a common culture along with geography and the money.

CU was always considered by the PAC as a logical candidate because it fits the culture. AAU membership, highly respected academics and research, a solid fit in terms of campus culture. Outside of athletics a lot of CU researchers are networked with other PAC schools.

We joke about ASU academics but in the B12 they would be in the upper half of the conference. We get frustrated at times because the CU administration is not "all in" on athletic success. In that regard we are like most of the other schools in the conference. The worst scandals in the conference have been USC and UCLA with paying some recruits. The PAC hasn't seen a school sell out for athletic success like we have seen with Baylor, with SMU, go full on JUCO like KjSU.

We may look at schools from a football standpoint but the existing members are more likely looking for schools that fit. That is why they took Utah over a BYU school that sold way more tickets and was a bigger TV name. Utah isn't a church school, isn't an athletic factory, and isn't a glorified JC.

SDSU has a long enough history of cheating that even if they made sense financially they may never be considered, UNLV the same. Boise may not make the cut academically either.

Texas would meet all the qualifications but lack the spirit of cooperation, the sense of balance in university mission. Unfortunately if the horns came calling their financial value would probably overcome any hesitation but if a lot of other schools are waiting for the PAC12 invite they might set their sights another direction.

Culturally, the school that's probably the best fit is New Mexico. Research-focused flagship university with a large endowment. Land-grant university.

And when it comes to the state of Nevada, the University of Nevada is actually a much better cultural fit than UNLV and the state's only land-grant university. And Reno is about to boom (Tesla factory, Apple databank, Amazon fulfillment center, etc.).

As weird as it sounds, if the university presidents drive expansion instead of ADs and media folks, I could definitely see U Nevada and U New Mexico being the choices.
 
Except much of the 240 million live for CFB. Out west, we have active lives and varied interests, good weather, powder....lives. ( Well except many posters on this site).

We have better demographics perhaps but it's easy to sell worthless crap to SEC fans. Plus, we skip the commercials. We know how to use the DVR.

Most of us live nowhere near where we were born. We don't have a lifetime of hatred for our division mates.

SEC fans are basically the average Bronco fan. Spending 20℅ of his income on football viewing.

Counter-argument to that is that, granting that this is true, it's really going to cause problems with the conference DNA if the Pac-12 expands into places where the culture is so vastly different. Rather, keeping to like-minded population zones within the region probably offers the best opportunity to have a marketing plan and business strategies that fit the cultures of all members.
 
What if CU and OU moved to the Big ten. Placed in the west division, move Purdue to the east.
A pod system with
OU, CU, NU, Iowa
Northwestern, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois
Indiana, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan St.
Penn St., Ohio State, Rutgers, Maryland
With the pod system trips east would be limited.
Would be one hell of a conference for both football and basketball.
Money would be huge.
 
What if CU and OU moved to the Big ten. Placed in the west division, move Purdue to the east.
A pod system with
OU, CU, NU, Iowa
Northwestern, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois
Indiana, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan St.
Penn St., Ohio State, Rutgers, Maryland
With the pod system trips east would be limited.
Would be one hell of a conference for both football and basketball.
Money would be huge.
I don't think the Big-10 would ever consider poaching a school from the Pac whatever considering their history and partnership. Also takes away from WC alumni base, the entire reason we moved in the first place.
 
I see no realistic scenario where it makes sense for CU to leave the PAC 12.

Let's recap:
1. CU's alumni base is overwhelmingly in the PAC 12 footprint.
2. Culturally, the school and its alumni are more rooted in the west.
3. The PAC 12 offers the best academic reputation in the country outside the Ivy League.
4. The PAC 12 population base is rapidly growing.
5. The away games are in much better places than in the Big 12. Big Ten has some appealing college towns, but CU would most likely be stuck in the division with Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota or the like.
6. Any eastward move would negatively impact recruiting in California. Move to Big Ten would negatively impact California and not help us in Texas (Nebraksa's issue right now). A move to Big 12 would put CU where it was in Texas behind Texass, ****Baylor,Taco Tech, A&M, TCU, OU, OSU and probably Houston while also hurting it in recruiting California.

It's like CU hit the jackpot and now people want to take all the money and invest it in Italian bank stocks. Please stop. CU is in a great position. Nebraska is the one in a terrible position that should be panicking.
 
I see no realistic scenario where it makes sense for CU to leave the PAC 12.

Let's recap:
1. CU's alumni base is overwhelmingly in the PAC 12 footprint.
2. Culturally, the school and its alumni are more rooted in the west.
3. The PAC 12 offers the best academic reputation in the country outside the Ivy League.
4. The PAC 12 population base is rapidly growing.
5. The away games are in much better places than in the Big 12. Big Ten has some appealing college towns, but CU would most likely be stuck in the division with Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota or the like.
6. Any eastward move would negatively impact recruiting in California. Move to Big Ten would negatively impact California and not help us in Texas (Nebraksa's issue right now). A move to Big 12 would put CU where it was in Texas behind Texass, ****Baylor,Taco Tech, A&M, TCU, OU, OSU and probably Houston while also hurting it in recruiting California.

It's like CU hit the jackpot and now people want to take all the money and invest it in Italian bank stocks. Please stop. CU is in a great position. Nebraska is the one in a terrible position that should be panicking.
I think there is also a huge difference between CU and Nebraska. Much easier to get kids from California to CU no matter what conference they are in as shown by the time in the Big 12. Colorado is a lot like California and recruits realize that when they visit.
 
I see no realistic scenario where it makes sense for CU to leave the PAC 12.

Let's recap:
1. CU's alumni base is overwhelmingly in the PAC 12 footprint.
2. Culturally, the school and its alumni are more rooted in the west.
3. The PAC 12 offers the best academic reputation in the country outside the Ivy League.
4. The PAC 12 population base is rapidly growing.
5. The away games are in much better places than in the Big 12. Big Ten has some appealing college towns, but CU would most likely be stuck in the division with Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota or the like.
6. Any eastward move would negatively impact recruiting in California. Move to Big Ten would negatively impact California and not help us in Texas (Nebraksa's issue right now). A move to Big 12 would put CU where it was in Texas behind Texass, ****Baylor,Taco Tech, A&M, TCU, OU, OSU and probably Houston while also hurting it in recruiting California.

It's like CU hit the jackpot and now people want to take all the money and invest it in Italian bank stocks. Please stop. CU is in a great position. Nebraska is the one in a terrible position that should be panicking.
good summary, with two points of slight disagreement.
#3: I think the B1G has best academic rep outside of Ivy. Pac is more top heavy.
#5: no question the Pac cities are more attractive destinations than the XII, but the Pac fans don't travel, so that's not much of a factor.
 
good summary, with two points of slight disagreement.
#3: I think the B1G has best academic rep outside of Ivy. Pac is more top heavy.
#5: no question the Pac cities are more attractive destinations than the XII, but the Pac fans don't travel, so that's not much of a factor.
It's pretty much a toss up between the Pac-12, Big-10 and ACC. Big-10 and ACC have 14 teams each though so a little harder to compare.
 
I agree that we are culturally and philosophically now in the conference that best aligns with us.

While adding a couple schools from the Texas Ten might enhance the conference those schools would not align as well.
 
#3: I think the B1G has best academic rep outside of Ivy. Pac is more top heavy..

I'm with @onealcd We'll call it a tie.

monty_python_2__limbless_black_knight.jpg
 
That was a dumb move. I understand that Okie Lite brings no value addition if you're already getting OU except for increasing the volume of games and that they also have an academic reputation with which no existing member wanted affiliation... but it would have put the Pac-14 in a much more powerful position. Of course, there's also a lot out there that says OU/OSU weren't committed to joining the Pac but were only shopping for an offer that would give them more leverage within the Big 12. So, I can also see why it was easy for the Pac-12 presidents to vote "no" based on not wanting to get used & rejected when they were on the fence about making those additions even if they'd been sure to join.

A question that's actually a little more interesting to me: if Boise State and BYU are seen as so valuable by other conferences (and SDSU, too, but just way too far away), why do we think this can never happen for Pac-12 expansion?

I realize we are talking about markets, but in terms of what matters within the footprint the Pac-12 doesn't quite own its markets.

It's hard for me to accept that SDSU + Boise State doesn't make the Pac-12 stronger. No one's going to 16 yet, so that would be a simple add. Even at a smaller piece of the pie, they'd make more than in the MWC. I know there are the issues with SDSU on the Cal State vs the UC system. There's also the issue of their football stadium if Qualcomm goes away. And the market being pretty much a Pac market already. With Boise State, I know there are the issues with market size and academics.

I believe that both of these schools are answering the main questions. SDSU expanding with a west campus in Mission Valley with plans for a new football stadium there. Boise State is about to complete a 5-year strategic plan that focused on very much improving its academic profile, adding new doctoral programs and cutting its associate's degrees. Both areas are growing like crazy. The last thing the Pac-12 needs is those schools in the Big 12. I think they hurt the conference enough as it is by diluting the conference's national reputation as THE conference for the west. Hell, if we asked sports fans in the east what the main programs are in the west, a lot of people would name Boise State and SDSU ahead of some Pac-12 schools (along with BYU and UNLV).

In my heart, I really want a western conference and to leave no doubt or openings to the market. And while I don't think it's the most lucrative short-term plan (far from it), I do believe that long-term it would be the way to go. These states and metros are growing.

I look at the following, and I just don't see what's wrong with the idea of doing what it takes to absolutely own a footprint that includes CA, NM, AZ, UT, ID, NV, CA, OR and WA (the following was created from a middle projection scenario from THIS REPORT):

kcvvajv.png


Maybe we should stop worrying so much about what everyone else is doing, be true to the Pac DNA*, and make this conference as strong as it can be while being true to itself. The Pac is not the farm belt. The Pac is not Texas. It is the Mountain and Pacific zones of the United States. Own it. Make it awesome.

(*When I see a successful businesses fail as they mature and grow, the main mistake seems to be that they drift away from their DNA. Focus is a good thing for the health of an organization.)

I personally love the idea of SDSU, but it is mainly motivated by the fact I love visiting SD and it would add another socal school to the schedule. That being said, I have read a few different places stating that the LA schools would vote against SDSU based on geography.
 
I personally love the idea of SDSU, but it is mainly motivated by the fact I love visiting SD and it would add another socal school to the schedule. That being said, I have read a few different places stating that the LA schools would vote against SDSU based on geography.

I have heard that too. They see a dilution of their brand and another competitor for their recruits. They also don't respect the Cal State system as being on the same level as the UC system (UCLA & Cal), so it's also a dilution of their "flagship" status. Basically, they're opposed to SDSU for many of the same reasons that CU opposes CSU for the Pac-12 but probably wouldn't oppose Air Force.
 
1. Stanford-Duke
2. Cal-Virginia
3. UCLA-Georgia Tech
4. Washington-UNC
5. USC-Miami
6. Colorado-Pitt
The ACC breakdown is surprisingly similar IMO.
 
Boise State adds nothing to the PAC and SDSU adds practically nothing. Boise has a small TV market, BSU academically is a joke, Boise could double its population and it would still be small.
 
1. Stanford-Duke
2. Cal-Virginia
3. UCLA-Georgia Tech
4. Washington-UNC
5. USC-Miami
6. Colorado-Pitt
The ACC breakdown is surprisingly similar IMO.

The big difference in the top heavy PAC schools and everybody else's top schools is scope of brand. Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA are bigger academic and research brands around the globe than Northwestern, Virginia, GaTech, Duke, North Carolina etc The Pac's top institutions are global juggernauts, not just really good american schools. Hence, if Scott ever figures out a global strategy, the pull of Stan/Berk/LA would be something the rest of the academic elites couldn't compete with. Will that ever happen... who knows.

fwiw: The richest man in Asia's son attends Berkeley, and his company is now a P12 partner...
 
The big difference in the top heavy PAC schools and everybody else's top schools is scope of brand. Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA are bigger academic and research brands around the globe than Northwestern, Virginia, GaTech, Duke, North Carolina etc The Pac's top institutions are global juggernauts, not just really good american schools. Hence, if Scott ever figures out a global strategy, the pull of Stan/Berk/LA would be something the rest of the academic elites couldn't compete with. Will that ever happen... who knows.

fwiw: The richest man in Asia's son attends Berkeley, and his company is now a P12 partner...
Stanford aside, I would bet the east coasters would be making the exact opposite argument.
 
Stanford aside, I would bet the east coasters would be making the exact opposite argument.
I don't know about that. Cal is the best public school in the country and UCLA is the most applied to school in the country. Hard to compete with that from your second and third best schools in the conference.
 
Stanford aside, I would bet the east coasters would be making the exact opposite argument.
Virginia, GaTech, North Carolina, Northwestern etc are not global brands. Most global rankings place the CA schools at the very top. Most of the top tier (FB) east coast schools are far more regional. They're obviously still amazing schools, but from London to Tokyo, they don't have the same name recognition.

And then there's USC, the 2nd most international school in America.
 
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Stanford aside, I would bet the east coasters would be making the exact opposite argument.

And they'd be wrong. ARWU rankings directly relate to this subject (out of Shanghai).

Top 100 World University Ranking

2. Stanford (Pac-12)
4. Cal, Berkeley (Pac-12)
12. UCLA (Pac-12)
15. Washington (Pac-12)
31. Duke (ACC)
34. Colorado (Pac-12)
39. North Carolina (ACC)
49. USC (Pac-12)
70. Pittsburgh (ACC)
90. Arizona (Pac-12)
93t. Arizona State (Pac-12)
93t. Utah (Pac-12)
 
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