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Jim MF'n Leavitt

WarBuff said:
No need for facts here, we are working on emotion!
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If you really want to look at his coaching history, feel free, I presume you understand how to use google and where to look for defensive stats and rankings (For the time he was a position coach you'll have to actually compare a subset of the stats, but again, I presume you know how to do that). I also presume you know how to look up his record as a football coach at south Florida. I summarized what you will find. Improvement at every stop, every time. Whether at the pro or college level. Whether as an assistant, a coordinator or a head coach.
On a side note, did you pay someone to do your homework for you when you were in school?
 
The bottom line is that there was no way that CU could match the life-changing money that Oregon offered. If CU could have matched, he likely would have stayed. I wish him well.
 
8Jah said:
So then you think that we had among the P12's top DB and DL recruiting classes at some point before the 2016 season? GTFO! We had among the worst. There were a handful of DB diamonds in the rough in those awful classes, but lets not pretend there were enough diamonds in the rough to produce the best defense in the PAC12 South with just any decent defensive coordinator.

It's not like he didn't have a long record of similar results...he created top defenses at South Florida with unknown talents. He pretty much did at Colorado what he had shown he could do at South Florida. The folks at Oregon gave him one of the ten highest salaries for an assistance coach in NCAA history (and the highest salary ever for a P12 coordinator) to lead their defense. The Oregon athletic folks obviously must know much less than you do. So lets wait and see what happens at Oregon this year.
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Only want to point out a major flaw in your argument. It is not a requirement to be a top ranked recruit in order to be a top player in your respective position. What kind of terrible logic is that? If that's what you believe, then explain why the number 1 recruit out of high school isn't the number 1 draft pick every year? Why the number 1 recruiting class every year isn't the number 1 team the next couple years without fail. Think man.
 
CitizenKane said:
If you really want to look at his coaching history, feel free, I presume you understand how to use google and where to look for defensive stats and rankings (For the time he was a position coach you'll have to actually compare a subset of the stats, but again, I presume you know how to do that). I also presume you know how to look up his record as a football coach at south Florida. I summarized what you will find. Improvement at every stop, every time. Whether at the pro or college level. Whether as an assistant, a coordinator or a head coach.
On a side note, did you pay someone to do your homework for you when you were in school?
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I was agreeing with your original post and complimenting your position, no need for a bitter response.
The man worked maniacally to improve the defense. The results were like everywhere else he has coached, impressive.
 
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Listen, he was smart to get out when he did. If he didn't have Chido, Spoon, Tedric and Oliver on that defense that year it probably would have been ranked somewhere in the 50's or 60's and he wouldn't have gotten the offer/contract from Oregon. Improving an Oregon defense from 2016 to 2017 that was devastated by injuries really isn't that impressive to me considering the talent they had and the apparent lack of knowledge/plan by the previous staff in terms of what to do defensively. This coming year is the real test, can he take that talent and take them to the next step like he did here at CU in 2016? I think he will do a good job but that division is going to be rough. Washington will probably make the playoff, Stanford is always Stanford, Cal is improving and WSU runs an unusual system that can be hard to prepare for mid season. All of that on top of a new head coach who was kept because they wanted to keep some of their recruits not necessarily because he was the best candidate. They have a joke of a schedule though with Bowling Green, SJSU and Portland State in the OOC and missing USC.
 
WarBuff said:
I was agreeing with your original post and complimenting your position, no need for a bitter response.
The man worked maniacally to improve the defense. The results were like everywhere else he has coached, impressive.
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Many apologies...I'm just a cranky old man!
 
Bread said:
Only want to point out a major flaw in your argument. It is not a requirement to be a top ranked recruit in order to be a top player in your respective position. What kind of terrible logic is that? If that's what you believe, then explain why the number 1 recruit out of high school isn't the number 1 draft pick every year? Why the number 1 recruiting class every year isn't the number 1 team the next couple years without fail. Think man.
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We try to recruit football players with talent. Talent=people who are, or will become great football players.

It is taken largely as a given on this board that our recruited talent has sucked relative to the rest of the pac12. In apparent contradiction, it is often argued that our talent level has sucked by the very people who think that Jim Leavitt's success at CU was mostly due to the talent he inherited. Now that you know this, read my posts more carefully.

Now I don't think our talent level has been as bad as most people here, but I also don't think we had anywhere near the talent to be one of the top defenses in the nation in 2016 on talent alone. Our meteoric rise up the defensive rankings from 2015-2016 is totally inline with the data on what Leavitt had done previously and is doing again.
 
CitizenKane said:
Many apologies...I'm just a cranky old man!
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onealcd said:
Dude, there were 5 nfl draft picks on that defense. That is as much/ more output than most elite defenses around the country. Stop making this hard.
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See my earlier post. Do you think we would have had 5 NFL draft picks if we had gone 1-8 in conference and placed last like we did in 2015? Having a breakout performance like we did in 2016 showcased a lot of good kids that wouldn't have otherwise got much of a look from the NFL. I love all our guys from 2016, but that class had two legit NFL draft picks.
 
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8Jah said:
See my earlier post. Having a breakout performance like we did in 2016 showcased a lot of good kids that wouldn't have otherwise got much of a look from the NFL. Do you think we would have had 5 NFL draft picks if we had gone 1-8 in conference and placed last like we did in 2015? I love all our guys from 2016, but that class had two legit NFL draft picks.
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Our defensive backs were always pretty good and coached well so yes I think they would have been drafted even if we sucked. Our issue the whole time was we weren't good up front and couldn't generate a pass rush so it was impossible for those guys to look good on the field. Then Leavitt comes in, gets Topou back, Carrell develops after a year at the P5 level and we were much better up front in terms of stopping the run and getting to the QB (this is a credit to him by the way). But a lot of that comes back to developing a great defensive backfield (which we all know Mac had his fingerprints all over) and having two defensive back coaches. We ran press man to man on the outside and let Tedric roam to where he thought the ball was going, not many schools in the country can do that every down and perform consistently and it makes the job of a defensive coordinator a lot easier because he can focus on the front end without risking huge plays.
 
onealcd said:
Our defensive backs were always pretty good and coached
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The two legit drafts were Awuzie and Witherspoon. I have no doubt that MM will continue to produce great DBs.

We had a DB in 2017 that was even better than those two. He will get drafted this year. Our other DBs played good as well, we had better safeties starting then we had in 2016, but our D still really sucked. Our team really sucked.

Leavitt was an awesome coach who made a real difference. There are mountains of evidence. I don't see why this is so hard to admit.
 
8Jah said:
The two legit drafts were Awuzie and Witherspoon. I have no doubt that MM will continue to produce great DBs.

We had a DB in 2017 that was even better than those two. He will get drafted this year. Our other DBs played good as well, we had better safeties starting then we had in 2016, but our D still really sucked. Our team really sucked.

Leavitt was an awesome coach who made a real difference. There are mountains of evidence. I don't see why this is so hard to admit.
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1. Tedric was a good defensive back way before 2016 he just struggled with injuries (hello ****ty front 7) but he was absolutely on draft boards
2. I just said Leavitt did a great job with the front 7 if you would actually read.
3. Oliver played better and more in 2016 than he did 2017 because he wasn't injured so to say he is still getting drafted despite the defense being bad in 2017 is disingenuous
4. Ignoring that the defensive backfield was the strength of the defense and the only truly elite part of the 2016 team makes absolutely no sense.
 
onealcd said:
4. Ignoring that the defensive backfield was the strength of the defense and the only truly elite part of the 2016 team makes absolutely no sense.
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Now your trying to put words in my mouth. I think the whole defense was good in 2016, and the evidence shows it was mostly due to a great DC. We had a solid group of upperclassmen that were well coached, well coordinated and highly motivated, but few of these upperclassmen were elite talents. We really had one elite player in Awuzie and another player, Witherspoon, that demonstrated a lot of upside.

If you must insist that we had elite talent all over our defense in 2016, then are you ready to admit that MM and staff have been elite recruiters on defense?
 
8Jah said:
If you must insist that we had elite talent all over our defense in 2016, then are you ready to admit that MM and staff have been elite recruiters on defense?
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And here's the fundamental flaw in the "do stars matter" argument. Of course MM and staff haven't been elite recruiters on defense as at the time of recruitment, Chido/TT/Spoon/Oliver/Laguda/Worthington were really highly rated blue chip recruits. They were so called "diamonds in the rough" for the most part. MM has a very keen eye for DB talent, though, and coaches them him better than just about anybody. So yes, by the time 2016 rolled around, those guys were "elite" talents who would have thrived and gone to the NFL under just about anybody being the DC. That doesn't downplay Leavitt's impact on the defense as a whole and how he put guys in great position to make plays, etc. but shifting all the credit to Leavitt when 8 guys from that defense (plus 2 more from 2017) went to the league is ridiculous.
 
The truth will come out this year....Oregon's defense had been an abomination before Leavitt.....A frosh Montez shredded them AT home with above average talent on their defensive roster. Yes, we had a good group of seniors in 2016......but they were put in a position to be at their best with Leavitt. He was highly motivational. When HCMM failed to publicly praise arguably the best DC in the country....and failed to give him any credit for the magical season in 2016, you knew that HCMM had issues with Leavitt and didn't do what most great leaders do; deflect personal praise and levy it on subordinates . Instead, HCMM went on his awards tour.....while actively seeking out other jobs (eg Mississippi). It is my opinion that Chiv gave HCMM and the AD an ultimatum.....make him the OC calling plays or he was moving on. I cannot imagine what was going on in the mind of Leavitt watching HCMM execute his job knowing that he had done better at USF and could do better with CU. Must have been tough especially when I am sure HCMM felt HE was responsible for the defensive turnaround.

Despite some upgrades to talent on the DL and LB, I am still suspect of our DC and therefore our D. I hope he proves me wrong. If they get hammered again by opposing offenses, then what? What will be the argument then? Talent still not good enough? Teams have gotten better?
 
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SDB said:
The truth will come out this year....Oregon's defense had been an abomination before Leavitt.....A frosh Montez shredded them AT home with above average talent on their defensive roster. Yes, we had a good group of seniors in 2016......but they were put in a position to be at their best with Leavitt. He was highly motivational. When HCMM failed to publicly praise arguably the best DC in the country....and failed to give him any credit for the magical season in 2016, you knew that HCMM had issues with Leavitt and didn't do what most great leaders do; deflect personal praise and levy it on subordinates . Instead, HCMM went on his awards tour.....while actively seeking out other jobs (eg Mississippi). It is my opinion that Chiv gave HCMM and the AD an ultimatum.....make him the OC calling plays or he was moving on. I cannot imagine what was going on in the mind of Leavitt watching HCMM execute his job knowing that he had done better at USF and could do better with CU. Must have been tough especially when I am sure HCMM felt HE was responsible for the defensive turnaround.

Despite some upgrades to talent on the DL and LB, I am still suspect of our DC and therefore our D. I hope he proves me wrong. If they get hammered again by opposing offenses, then what? What will be the argument then? Talent still not good enough? Teams have gotten better?
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Holy **** there is a whole bunch of drivel and conjecture on your part. You truly are a whiny bitch.
 
1. It was Leavitt seeking out jobs after 2016, not MM. (Leavitt played it beautifully in getting three schools to bid for his services)

2. I highly doubt Chev had to give MM an ultimatum. He was the logical choice once it became clear Lindgren was gone.

3. If we suck on defense again in 2018, it will be due to poor recruiting and poor coaching. Not much need to complicate things.
 
SDB said:
When HCMM failed to publicly praise arguably the best DC in the country....and failed to give him any credit for the magical season in 2016, you knew that HCMM had issues with Leavitt and didn't do what most great leaders do; deflect personal praise and levy it on subordinates .
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This is absolutely true and folks who want to disagree can go back and watch the press conferences. We know that MM and Leavitt didn't get along, perhaps because JL was the greater leader and more respected among many of the players.

A coaches leadership builds great programs. Everything else, including recruiting and scheming, is subordinate to that. Is MM a great leader?
 
8Jah said:
This is absolutely true and folks who want to disagree can go back and watch the press conferences. We know that MM and Leavitt didn't get along, perhaps because JL was the greater leader and more respected among many of the players.

A coaches leadership builds great programs. Everything else, including recruiting and scheming, is subordinate to that. Is MM a great leader?
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Clear that HCMM felt threatened by Leavitt. Kind of funny actually. Put up or shut up time for HCMM. Can he win without Leavitt? I guess we will find out!!!
 
SDB said:
The truth will come out this year....Oregon's defense had been an abomination before Leavitt.....A frosh Montez shredded them AT home with above average talent on their defensive roster. Yes, we had a good group of seniors in 2016......but they were put in a position to be at their best with Leavitt. He was highly motivational. When HCMM failed to publicly praise arguably the best DC in the country....and failed to give him any credit for the magical season in 2016, you knew that HCMM had issues with Leavitt and didn't do what most great leaders do; deflect personal praise and levy it on subordinates . Instead, HCMM went on his awards tour.....while actively seeking out other jobs (eg Mississippi). It is my opinion that Chiv gave HCMM and the AD an ultimatum.....make him the OC calling plays or he was moving on. I cannot imagine what was going on in the mind of Leavitt watching HCMM execute his job knowing that he had done better at USF and could do better with CU. Must have been tough especially when I am sure HCMM felt HE was responsible for the defensive turnaround.

Despite some upgrades to talent on the DL and LB, I am still suspect of our DC and therefore our D. I hope he proves me wrong. If they get hammered again by opposing offenses, then what? What will be the argument then? Talent still not good enough? Teams have gotten better?
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Go back and watch the interview with Lingren and Chiv at the beginning of last season. Clearly there was no love lost. Had to know one of them had to go.
 
Duff Man said:
1. It was Leavitt seeking out jobs after 2016, not MM. (Leavitt played it beautifully in getting three schools to bid for his services)

2. I highly doubt Chev had to give MM an ultimatum. He was the logical choice once it became clear Lindgren was gone.

3. If we suck on defense again in 2018, it will be due to poor recruiting and poor coaching. Not much need to complicate things.
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Of course Leavitt was looking. He was not appreciated by HCMM and had just orchestrated one of the greatest defensive turnarounds I have ever seen. The fact that THREE wanted him and Oregon backed up the Brinks to get him tells you all you need to know. On the other hand, there WERENT many suitors breaking down the door to steal HCMM. Facts are difficult things. All I can say is Oregon's defense dramatically improved with above average talent, and will definitely take another step this year. I think they win the North. Where will the Buffs be with an improved talent pool? Hopefully better but wouldn't bet the house on it. We were pretty awful last year.
 
TSchekler said:
And here's the fundamental flaw in the "do stars matter" argument. Of course MM and staff haven't been elite recruiters on defense as at the time of recruitment, Chido/TT/Spoon/Oliver/Laguda/Worthington were really highly rated blue chip recruits. They were so called "diamonds in the rough" for the most part. MM has a very keen eye for DB talent, though, and coaches them him better than just about anybody. So yes, by the time 2016 rolled around, those guys were "elite" talents who would have thrived and gone to the NFL under just about anybody being the DC. That doesn't downplay Leavitt's impact on the defense as a whole and how he put guys in great position to make plays, etc. but shifting all th credit to Leavitt when 8 guys from that defense (plus 2 more from 2017) went to the league is ridiculous.
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If MM can pick out diamonds in the rough and turn them into elite players, then MM is an elite recruiter and you just cant get around that fact. You don't get a whole defense worth of diamonds in the rough with luck and you can't just coach up guys to an elite status if they don't have an elite level of underlying talent. You can use words like ridiculous for effect, but you really just masking an indefensible position bro.

Leavitt inherited a bunch of decent (not elite), upperclassmen players and turned them into a very good college defense with leadership, motivation and coaching. This isn't the NFL. You don't have to have a team full of elite players to be good in college, as many coaches have shown. You might need a bunch of elite players to play for an NC, but not to be a bowl team. The players that graduated in 2016 did look pretty good; being part of a highly rated defense. Would most of them have gotten looks at the NFL if Baer was still coaching them? Probably not.
 
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